The female's representation in video games has been kidnapped by the patriarchy! Somebody needs to go save it!
I haven't watched this yet, but I'm already fiving it to spite the fucking nerds and MRA dickheads who thought the best method of discourse was threatening this woman with their shrink wrapped penises.
"Comments are disabled." Good, I won't have to feel ashamed for humanity then.
Yeah. This is the first time I've been happy to see comments disabled.
threatened machismo is never not laughable
|Caminante Nocturno |
I am offended, give me all of your money, that'll learn them.
OH NO, NOONE CARES ABOUT MY WHITE MALE POWER FANTASY REQUIREMENTS LIKE THEY USED TO!
To steal from Brad Neely, "I was once like you, then I grew a brain, a heart, and a dick."
Well, now you know how I feel about all of you every second of my life.
She brings up a lot of great points about the video game industry, and makes me realize that Miyamoto is a bit of a sexist, not that it was hard to see before, but it really pointed out just how ass backwards his plots always are. Shiek to Zelda and 3 minutes later she gets kidnapped? I completely didn't realize that as a youth. The Dinosaur Planet thing also points out how fucking self involved Miyamoto is as a creator. "Oh, you have a good idea here, let me take it and destroy everything it is."
Pretty good, and despite all the controversy, this wasn't the insanely feminist and "cut their penises off" as everyone suggested it would be. So much hubbub over this? What fucking louts the male gaming populous is.
Miyamoto is an unimaginative storyteller. It's a very long leap of faith to claim he's sexist.
And yeah, the hubbub is she's giving people like you the idea that Miyamoto is sexist simply because he's aping the same monomyth that countless works of popular media have used without complaint.
I mean, god, that Django Unchained movie where the guy is trying to save his wife? What a sexist piece of trash.
he's a japanese man in his sixties. its a leap of faith to think he is not sexist.
Wall-E is nothing more than sexist trash. Same for Star Wars: A New Hope.
Miyamoto doesn't really see himself as a storyteller. He's a designer, primarily of environments and levels, then of characters. He's on record as saying he doesn't really care about plotlines in video games. He's not opposed to them, but they're not what his games are about.
Which means he's perfectly fine repeating the same plot in Mario and Zelda forever and ever.
I don't know if he's sexist as much as he might just be looking for the quickest possible excuse to motivate the good guy to go do stuff. Could be either, could be both.
Alright, I'll give you that, very unimaginative. But I want you to consider JUST what he did to Dinosaur Planet. Now, I know she's only telling us half the story, and the other main character RARE had planned for the game was a male of the same species as Crystal. Not making it the unabashed female empowerment tool that she is making it out to be, But when Miyamoto came in and suggested "This should be the next Star Fox game." and then made it so, it makes me think that the dude is just stealing a game out from under someone else, which makes him an asshole first and foremost.
Regarding sexism? I only called him "A bit of a sexist." in the way that he operated. He took something of merit in writing with a female protagonist and tore it apart to suit his ambitions, removing her as a main character and making her a romance/sex object. Turning her just into a plot device for the male lead to love/fight for. Even giving her weapon to him to use, because he'll use it better because he's a man, amirite?
It's fine if you ape classical literature, but have alittle creativity, for fucks sake.
We have absolutely no evidence of Miyamoto making any meaningful contribution to Dinosaur Planet's plot, other than a single interview quote where he mentioned "this would probably make a good StarFox game." If someone from Rare comes forward and says "Miyamoto made us make Krystal into a minor character" fine, but until then stop making baseless accusations regarding one of gaming's most groundbreaking creators.
I'm really sorry your personal hero used simple sexist tropes to make some great games.
Are you going to be okay?
Miyamoto is far from my personal hero. I just don't like seeing a man's legacy rewritten to fit an agenda.
The entire medium is held back when we recklessly brand some of its most important works as morally lacking, especially on the basis of the one dimensional cartoon plots which barely factor into the totality of the work.
What is being rewritten? His secret history of releasing games with themes and characters that ran a rebours to the status quo? Nothing is being rewritten. Video games are sexist like pretty much all media.
Why is this a surprise to you.
If you think Super Mario Bros is anything close to the "adolescent male power fantasy" Sakeesian describes, I wonder how you're able to enjoy any media.
Because when I played Super Mario Bros., it was mostly about jumping on bad guys and shit, not demeaning women.
In this thread alone you've put alot of words into other people's mouths and reframed their arguments to fit your fantasy that this woman is 'recklessly' 'branding' 'the whole medium' as 'sexist trash'
what you don't seem to be able to do is imagine what it would be like to be a little girl who wants to play video games, and is constantly, thoroughly told by those games that women are helpless sex objects.
you don't see anything worth talking about here?
In what era? Because we've pretty much gotten away from that sort of thing as an industry. I can't think of the last game to feature women as nothing more than helpless sex objects.
"Sexism doesn't exist because I am not offended by it."
In fact, a large portion of the games I've recently played have had very strong female leads. Getting bogged down in the myth that Mario needs a female protagonist in order to not be sexist is a huge step in the wrong direction. Mario can continue being Mario, without preventing us from making other games starring women.
Or hell, make Peach playable. Again, the Mario games don't have plots anyway, so it's not like it'll be progressive in any meaningful way.
Sexism exists. It does not exist in either Mario or Zelda, despite Sarkeesian's claims.
Be honest. How many pictures of your dick did you send to this woman.
"Remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of itís more problematic or pernicious aspects."
"Remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of itís more problematic or pernicious aspects."
"Remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of itís more problematic or pernicious aspects."
ad infuckingfinitum, you dorklord.
Again, tell me how Mario / Zelda is demeaning towards women (see: sexist), without referencing shitty American ad campaigns.
The mere fact that a piece of media features a male lead rescuing a female is not enough to be considered sexist, unless the universe gives the illusion that this interaction occurred only because women are entirely helpless unless aided by men. This is something I don't remember the game about flying around with a raccoon tail touching upon.
so, mario/zelda games can't be sexist because they are depicting an entirely different universe from ours, and all media is created within a vacuum, devoid of any sort of social context?
you can't bring yourself to imagine how mario is reproducing sexist cultural norms (the man as the default hero rescuing some othered, victimized woman) because part of the gameplay mechanic involves flying around with a raccoon tail?
Mario and Zelda were two examples in an exhaustive list of games she compiled to demonstrate a persistence of an archetype that has existed throughout history and presents women as objects.
Her criticism is of culture at large, not specifically games you really really like.
Did you not watch the video? She was pretty thorough.
Because rescuing a loved one is a wholly disgusting narrative in which the rescued is represented as a fetishized object of sexual inferiority.
You guys see that movie Taken? Fucking gross how she needed her dad to save her.
You should be able to be critical of works you love while still enjoying it. Some of the thinkers I cherish were far from perfect. Frank Herbert was a homophobe, Carl Sagan was a Jew.
If you can't understand the things you love as products of fallible human beings just like you, and who, just like you, can be wrong about some things you're not going to be able to really understand the world you're living in.
Yeah, I'm a little confused by how misterbuns considers Peach a "helpless sex object."
And exhaustive means something completely seperate from what you seem to think it means.
That's how the word is used, exactly. It's okay! Hookers aren't known for their vocabulary.
So every sexist video game was in this video? 'Cause I've played a few that I thought were pretty sexist and she didn't even mention.
Back to the main point, wasn't the entire Mushroom Kingdom kidnapped by Bowser? Didn't Mario rescue a bunch of Toad characters, who were all male, before finally getting to Peach? I guess they're don't count.
Did her dad want to fuck her? No, So we thought it was alittle more noble, I hated that movie anyway, it was fucking retarded dad "don't touch my daughter" fantasies that people over 30 get.
Your defense is "Video Games shouldn't attempt to change themselves to welcome in new gamers because.... WE LIKE IT ORIENTED TOWARD MEN LIKE ME, AND ONLY ME." Which is not a good defense.
Don't worry, there will always be a market for your bouncing boob simulators and jRPGs with little girls in tight clothes. You'll always be there, and people like you will always be there.
Sorry dude, not to put you in a box, but you're really coming off like one of these guys who bitch about women finally standing up for themselves and saying "Well, maybe I don't want to be these characters you've presented for me to be."
Flip it around, man. Imagine you're in a world where the ONLY male characters are constantly running around in tiny armors that accentuate his sexual aspects (his dick and balls), and by running around, I mean standing around, because they're considered too... "whatever" to participate except when they get kidnapped. What would you do? Want to play video games? Want to make your stake in a world filled with THAT shit going on? You wouldn't like it, would you?
You've never experienced that, and neither have I unless I attempted to subject myself to it, which has very few avenues open. You're just mad because people want to change something so they don't feel like they're on the outside of it looking in when they attempt to join in.
"So every sexist video game was in this video? 'Cause I've played a few that I thought were pretty sexist and she didn't even mention those." hooker
I'm going to go ahead and call you out for not watching the video (at least any significant part of it). or completely dismiss you as not worth paying attention to if you missed the part where she said "I'll be talking more about the damsel in distress trope in my next video".
Although it does give me a smile to imagine that you did watch the whole thing and by the point in the video where she mentioned discussing it further you were to busy frothing at the mouth in impotent rage to notice it.
The Super Mario chronology is completely out of order and should be heavily debated among fans. There should be flowcharts made and arguments over the validity of those charts.
CLEARLY Mario Kart takes place before the core games. That was before Bowser and Donkey Kong turncoated and usurped the Mushroom Kingdom with the Power Star Source. The Power Star Source's manipulation also created parallel universes that resulted in "Mario is Missing" and "Mario Teaches Typing." "Super Mario Bros. 2" (the U.S version) is also a prequel because Wart escaped from Mario's nightmare and merged with Bowser to manipulate him into becoming a turncoat.
I'm not the slightest big angry about this. I think the sexist garbage in video games is awful (the most ludicrious to me being the woman that shows up in Mass Effect 2 with an absurd skin-tight outfit and clown breasts). I think this is a good project that's bogged down by taking a huge amount of people's money and making a vlog with it.
If I'm angry at anything, it's the people who on principle I agree with attacking endlesschris's completely reasonable comments with a ton of bullshit.
it's not even that endlesschris is being particularly unreasonable, it's that he's being completely uncritical.
Given the thesis of this entire video series, that we are allowed to enjoy a piece of art or media or whatever while still paying a bare minimum of attention to the oppressive cultural institutions that might have informed it, endlesschris is really missing the point.
you hear it all the time, "but this game/movie/book was so awesome, and since it didn't explicitly say anything problematic, it can't possibly be racist/sexist"
it's fucking lazy is what it is, you can't just always look at something through the same privileged white dude lens and expect to have anything meaningful to say about whether something is contentious or not.
"Fuck this cunt."
- My Friend Katie
A woman said it, I'm not sexist everybody!
Repeal the voting rights act!
"Mas'r Legree, as ye bought me, I'll be a true and faithful servant to ye" -Uncle Tom
Yeah, I used to side with the boys for brownie points, too.
Does Katie brag about not liking other girls? Oh, I'll betcha she does.
Katie's a good egg
-- attributed to Hitler
All that money went to a talking head documentary?
AND the giant stack of video games to pose next to for a promo shoot, following the Angry Video Game Nerd trend of impressive collection = hits
she used the rest of the money to erect a baroque shrine to the Diana The Huntress festooned with the dried scrotums of everyone who was in line at the local gamestop for the release of Bayonetta.
People who still shop at Gamestop deserve that though.
That may be, FABIO, but there's no need to turn vigilante castration into a gender issue.
That's very patriarchal of you, associating scrotums with a specific gender. Check your privilege.
HAHA BECAUSE SHE'S ASKING FOR SOME REALLY IRRATIONAL THINGS HERE AND WE'RE MEN AND SHE'S NOT AND
This circle jerk is fucking boring, give it a rest.
Five for the divisiveness alone.
So what problem do people have with her, exactly?
Also she is not very attractive and she has nobody but herself to blame for that.
At this point? The Bo-news levels of righteous indignation she's inspiring in the comments here. Everyone has turned into John Holmes to her Boxxy.
Honest question for everyone: What if a religious figure had started a campaign to get God and Christian values back into movies and was met with a 4chan art campaign of him being gangraped by Satan and alter boys? Would you be just as outraged?
Here's my favorite take someone wrote back in December:
"Let's get this out of the way up front: I get sent loads of free money all the time, I've never released any videos, and everything I know about feminist theory could fit in an A-cup. In every respect that matters, I am Anita Sarkeesian. I guess that's why I have so much trouble understanding what anyone could possibly have against this woman. I mean, who is more deserving of scorn: the thieving gypsy who scams 150 G's to address the crippling lack of videos on Youtube and comes back with nothing, or the anonymous developer - let's call him "American M." - who scams God knows how many G's, probably at least 50 judging by the screenshots, to produce a playable computer game and comes back with American McGee's Alice: Madness Returns? Before you make up your mind, remember that you could conceivably get drunk enough to accidentally torrent the computer game (a possibility made frighteningly real by American McGee having the porn directoriest name outside of Jonathan Blow and "Returns" just being a fancy English word for "Cums Again"); meanwhile, no one is ever going to be unwittingly exposed to Anita Sarkeesian's videos because they don't exist."
Short answer: Nothing legitimate.
Long answer: Petulant manchildren obsessed with the male privilege they simultaneously rabidly enforce and refuse to acknowledge wet their collective Pull-Ups when a woman made 4th-rate e-famous for her feminist media criticism YT channel, Anita Sarkeesian, proposes a series wherein she picks apart video games. A Kickstarter is launched to fund it, with a goal of 00.
4chan, reddit, and other strongholds of frustrated, sulky, testosterone-fueled wangst propose to Teach The Bitch A Lesson by flagging her YT vids as hate speech, comment-bombing rape and death threats, and filing baseless complaints with Kickstarter, trying to get the project pulled. Decent People respond by superfunding Anita to 6 figures and making her a modern feminist mini-icon, just for a taste of those delicious MRA rage tears.
Appalled that Sarkeesian didn't immediately crumble to dust under pressure like she's supposed to and the rest of the internet flipped them a collective 0,000+ bird, MRAers launch their own laughable little project, "Tropes vs Men," on IndieGogo, Kickstarter's poor country relation. It makes about 00. It dawns on a precious few of them that threatening to rape and murder a woman who publicly points out sexism just kind of makes her fucking point FOR her, and a halfhearted attempt is made to reel in the trolls. Needless to say, horse was out of the barn on that one.
In the following months, reddit and 4chan are so desperate to discredit Sarkeesian that they invent rumors of her vacationing in Barbados on the proceeds, and even go so far as to fake a Twitter screencap of Sarkeesian buying ,000 shoes. Really. Google it.
FAST-FORWARD ONE YEAR: After a year of updates, the first episode is out, and it's pretty fucking goodm thoughfully made, and thorough. "Tropes vs. Men," meanwhile, hasn't updated in 6 months, and hasn't donated the money it received as it claimed. Criticism of Sarkeesian has shifted to the hilarious, but just as petulant and telling "That doesn't look like a six-figure video!" and "I refuse to watch this until someone makes a response video pointing out the faults."
And that's where we are now.
Do people really care about vaudeville damsel tied to the railroad track game plots though?
Remember all the Metroid: Other M videos submitted here? Half the comments were disgust in turning the protagonist into a subservient ditz, the other half asking who cares about story in video games. Either they're dishonestly jumping on the anti-4chan bandwagon (not a bad goal by itself) or nobody really realized that Zelda needed saving before this amazing video showed them the way.
Hahaha. Nobody gives a shit about her more than FABIO, and now he's trying to turn the gaze on everyone else?
Caminantes second argument why this and Target Women sucks:
They're not very hot!
Christianity is not value netural, Fabio. Feminist values aren't evil. Christian values are.
Yes, "Christian values" = basic gender equality, FABIO you dumbshit.
That's a lot of vitrol for asking basic questions about this woman's point. I notice Hooker can never mention me without usin the word "classic", do you keep some journal on me? Maybe one of you can make a game about murdering me at some point.
Strike the Christian values analogy. What about Jack Thompson's call to end murder in games? How was that any less valid than Anita's goal? Did any of you care about the tons of Flash murder games made about him?
"NO! NOOO! YOU TALK ABOUT SUPER PRINCESS PEACH RIGHT DA FUCK NOW OR YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOUR OWN ARGUMENT! YOU BEST BACK DA FUCK UP OR I'M GONNA TRAVEL BACK IN TIME TO WHEN THAT PHOTO WAS TAKEN AND YOU'RE GONNA CAPTURE MY SUPER GHOULS AND DONKEY DONG! HI-FIVE, BROS!" - Parallel universe where comments weren't disabled.
I learned a lot from this. This is truly eye-opening stuff. Furry heroine's game is canceled and then she's transformed into a hapless prisoner for Fox McCloud to FUCKING OGLE WITH HIS MOUTH AGAPE? Awesome pirate girl is suddenly incapable of taking care of herself when she becomes Zelda and is forced to just stand around like a shut off android in the goddamn castle? Dirk the Daring going after the worst representation of a female ever conceived? "Will you get the girl or will you play like one?" I already knew the damsel in distress trope was a gross and forever going thing, but Jesus-fuck, I feel ashamed now.
And yeah, I already know the flip side of this. Princess Peach eventually got her own side scroller where her womanly mood swings were her superpowers, and otherwise nearly every strong female protagonist ever has just been eye candy with their tits hanging out. Yet somehow I feel like that whole thing will become even worse when we get to that episode.
I remember that study from about a year ago that found only about 1/3 of characters in movies and TV shows are female. In video games I'm sure it's much lower than that. This represents so many missed opportunities to develop interesting characters and put new twists on old stories.
Seriously, why hasn't there been a Legend of Zelda game yet where she straps on one of her multiple canon adventuring outfits and goes dungeon-crawling herself? Does anyone think that wouldn't be a huge hit? It would probably sell millions of new consoles just so longtime fans could play it, or give it to their daughters.
At any rate, this was pretty well-made and obviously more than did its job of generating discussion. I look forward to the other episodes.
Me and a Friend were figuring out how to make Zelda a main character and still remain in plot or atleast in the same idea. We decided it would be neat to have the game start out like every Zelda game. Link is driven into the wide world at the start of the game by forces bigger than himself, so big in fact that he must travel to another continent. Well, while he's away, Gannon makes a power play for the triforce, or crown or whatever. Knowing Link is away on a mission of importance, Zelda gets strapped to defend her own people. The game could switch between the characters on opposite sides of the globe, maybe on the fly, and most assuredly their worlds would interact, requiring them to send items or information to one another to find a way to defeat Gannon from two different places in the world
This took 5 minutes, and sounds like an awesome game.
lol at the butthurt
This is still a thing that the Internet says?
this is what Pong leads to
|Hugo Gorilla |
Yeah, video games aren't very good at being socially conscious and use stale and well-trodden plot devices that don't reflect the totality of life or life experiences. Repeat for the next ten episodes.
I watched an interesting 23 minute video, posted some comments here, and went to bed...
...I woke up to the sound of hoof beats, swords clashing, and moans of the dying. Come on, guys. Reel it in. There has been enough bloodshed for a sunny March morn.
Perhaps one of the problems is video games never really grew up. They were around when most of us were children, entertaining us with simple graphics and 'save the princess/Ryan's girlfriend' story lines.
Then when we got older, the game designers wanted us to keep playing so the games 'matured' with us. Only the designers collectively misunderstood what 'maturity' meant, so it was limited to blood, ultra violence, and damsels-in-distress/Strong Female Protagonists with giant bouncing titties and erect nipples in 1080i/p resolution. We're still playing the same types of games, but we've been fooled into thinking the 'M' on the package corner translates to 'grown up.'
Video games have grown up, but not very much. They're still a really young medium. They were in their infancy during the Donkey Kong years, and now they're in that teenage phase where you first start realizing how screwed up the world is but you don't know what to do about it. And part of you still wants to be an asshole like most of your friends.
I'm not touching this one.
I don't get what all the fuss is about.
She's not saying "ban the games" or "these games are evil."
She's just saying to look at them more critically.
She's absolutely right about females being relegated to passive roles. And she's right that it speaks to our culture as a whole. And the over-the-top response from some of the male gamers out there sure put a point on it.
I've played a lot of those games, perhaps seeing the gender roles more clearly than a boy gamer would. It doesn't really anger me to play these games, but the storyline and characters sure get old.
Mark me down as one of those voting "yes, a worthwhile video to stir discussion."
Ok, let's try this again:
WWD, you nailed it right on the head.
Gentlemen. Pay me one hundred thousand dollars and I WILL read tvtropes.org on camera.
For people complaining about what the budget went to: the answer is research and taking the time to develop a persuasive, well-thought out argument.
Also everybody complaining that she didn't just watch Youtube videos instead of buying games can just fuck off. If she had just based her opinion on Youtube videos, you'd be rightly criticizing her for doing that. People that don't play games and criticize them based on Youtube videos are fucking stupid.
Remember when people were talking about how in GTA games you can hire prostitutes and then murder them to get your money back? Is that really a part of the game, or just something that the game doesn't actively prevent you from doing? The difference has nothing to do with specific content; It's a matter of how the game mechanics are tuned. I found prostitutes to be an inefficient way to regain health and the money dropped not sufficiently valuable to justify getting out of the car to pick it up past the first few missions. More prostitutes and more valuable money could easily change that.
|Jane Error |
I still remember as a kid how utterly freaking overjoyed I was that I could play as Peach in Mario 2.
Same here. Floating over things was awesome.
|Macho Nacho |
The rage that is going on here. Wow.
But I would totally love to play a game with Sheik being the main character. That would be kick ass.
|Jet Bin Fever |
And here I was hoping some of the vitriolic bullshit would stay off of here, but nope! Look, I didn't particularly like this, but it was because of the format not the content. So 5 stars.
Is it fair to suggest that she probably got a lot of her donations by filling the role of the damsel in distress?
Based on her argument, the damsel in distress becomes an objectified thing, robbed of her own agency. She's simply a belonging for men to fight over. Since this started with Anita taking action by requesting funding to start a web series that addresses sexism in video games, the answer is 'no'. That's simply collaboration.
I'm not suggesting that there weren't guys who donated out of a white knight motivation. Their behavior was a reaction to her action, though.
Well that's what I mean by "filling the role". I imagine there were a lot of people (men and women) who believed that they were coming to her rescue.
Nah dude, she's got her own story arc in this one, didn't you watch the video?!?
|American Standard |
Gosh, I love it when people complain about how much money she made. As if she asked for 100k in the first place.
|Binro the Heretic |
This needed to be done. I hope game makers pay attention.
Holy shit this tread lol tldr one star for fag dancing
Serious question: if this had been some neckbeard making the same point instead of an attractive woman, or if 4chan had never gotten involved, would people still the points? Or would you honestly be queuing up to post VIDYA GAMES or declare this a first world problem?
Second serious question: what was your reaction to all the flash games that had you violently murder Jack Thompson when he was still a headline? (there were tons of them)
Second question part 2: Why is farcical princess kidnapping and female sexuality a greater issue than extreme violence? How is one accepted as a harmless fantasy that doesn't carry over to the real world and the other a real threat to society? Hasn't everyone here made a joke at some point about kids ripping out their friends' spines thanks to Mortal Kombat?
Question 3: Do you think the 4chan and Xbox Live troglodyte mentality is born of womens' portrayal in games, or rather some real life disfunction? Would Halo kiddies be any less horrible if the series didn't star a sexy hologram? Before you answer that, remember the Jack Thompson (a man) murder games.
Well, since you're asking SERIOUS QUESTIONS and all, here:
1: I think the portrayal of women and girls in popular media is a perfectly legitimate topic of discussion regardless of what 4chan thinks. The reactions of frightened men defending their privilege added another dimension to it but was never the only thing worth talking about here.
2: I was never aware of any Jack Thompson murder simulators, but that sounds petty and obnoxious. It's also worth noting though that Thompson was a litigious troll who was deliberately trying to stir up an angry response and got himself disbarred in the process while Sarkeesian was not.
2.2: This is not a serious question. It's a dumb attempt to change the subject, like when gun nuts try to derail conversations about gun control by pointing out that car accidents kill a lot of people every year too. Sarkeesian is not arguing that one issue is "greater" than another. She's simply picked one issue that she is interested in and presented some arguments on it, sans any judgement of relative severity versus other media critiques.
3: I do not agree with your caveat that I should consider Jack Thompson in answering this question. I am not willing to take it for granted that people form their opinions on violence and gender roles in the same way, and as I pointed out above Thompson was at least half-trolling while I don't think Sarkeesian was. I'd also like to know why you think the images young men and boys are shown of women in popular media is somehow different from "real life" influences. Is popular media not a part of your real life?
Not to point out the glaringly obvious or anything but murder and sexism are different. Anyone can get murdered. Sexism is more complicated in that it can be oppressive towards men or women depending on the circumstances. It's not the same as murder - it's specific to gender.
A "neckbeard" making the same points would be just as interesting, the only substantial difference is that people wouldn't be bombarding him with rape threats etc... well, maybe some people. There would still be cynical people declaring "first world problems"; people are doing it for this one too. A lot more people would call him a faggot though.
Jack Thompson is an individual with ideas people disagree with. In short, people weren't making games that involved killing him BECAUSE he is a man, they presumably did it because they wanted to create a game which depicted what he was speaking out against, or to be a dick, or whatever.
Sexism in video games being a greater issue is largely dependent on who you talk to but, this video - hell, the ideas that were the precursors to this video - proved that people obviously have more issues with how women are portrayed in video games than they do with ultra-violence. And that's interesting. Violence, cartoon or otherwise, is more endemic than sexism in games; it's in all media everywhere, it's even on the evening news. Sexism can be addressed much more feasibly, and I bet if you asked most people if they think media, or video games, are too violent, most would answer yes. If you look around there are people speaking out against violence in games, it's just that society as a whole apparently isn't that worried about it. But by all means, join with Jack Thompson if you really feel strongly about it. However, don't expect people to be able to protest what you think is most important.
Also when you're sexist to people in video games you're sexist to them IN REAL LIFE!
As opposed to violence in video games. Whatever, I'm tired and I'm going to bed.
Blue: What would the real life crossover be for killing hookers in GTA then?
Thanks for the 2 actual thought out replies.
I brought up violence vs sexism because of the weird direction people seem to want to take this in. The new Tomb Raider is being hailed as empowering to women characters thanks to its blood caked I Spit on Your Grave approach (and Laura's "more realistic" E cup on a 110 lb. frame). I don't remember anyone hailing Space Channel 5 as a step forward despite having a capable female protagonist,and it was no sillier a game than a lot of Anita's example. Is it because she wasn't charged with acts of violence and wore a skimpy outfit? The majority of opinion seems to be that a female protagonist has to engage in the same murder spree as men, but you better make it extra bloody and gorey to compensate? That doesn't seem like a healthier approach.
Double Dragon is misogynistic crap when, in a game where hundreds are beaten to death, a woman gets punched in the stomach? What does she think is going to happen to the female action game protagonists she keeps calling for? This goes back to the Tomb Raider thing; she's against showing violence against women yet wants them to be the star in said violence.
I guess wait till part 2 when she talks about more modern stuff, but her claim that it's a rampant problem is hard to support when almost all of her examples are 10-30 years old. Do we really need to worry about retro digital downloads? Do young impressionable kids spend on SNES games or is it just nostalgia for adults?
I can't recall a mario game in the past decade where the kidnapping wasn't treated as a self-aware parody. I remember kids making fun of the roteness of the whole rescue the princess/girlfriend cliche all the way back in the early 90s. I think everyone already recognizes it for the archaic lazy device it is. Everyone hated Metroid Other M for making Samus subservient. Dante's Inferno was regarded as derivative crap. The one complaint I constantly heard about New Super Mario Bros was generic toads instead of the princess.
As an aside, where is she getting sexist from Twilight Princess? They made the villain out to be powerful by making the entire army helpless against him. Zelda just happened to be the ruler and nothing would have changed if she was a man. At no point is she a trophy or love interest. Then you have Midna who was a well realized character without condescendingly putting her on a pedestal or making her a model swap of a man. In fact she was an inverse of the whole trope because she only gained the ability to do anything when the male protagonist was disempowered.
|Chocolate Jesus |
Coming Soon: Bashing Mr. Rogers for his depiction of women in the Neighborhood of Make-Believe.
1. I personally would still be making the same points. The whole "First World Problems" thing is a funny meme but a dumb argument. We don't live in the third world, so yeah, these are our problems and they are real problems. You can make the argument that the problems aren't important, but 1 they are important to other people and 2 this is an appropriate place to have arguments about things that are not important.
2. Couple things. First, Jack Thompson is trying to ban things, Sarkeesian isn't. He's also suing people. It may be legal, but that doesn't mean it's not a really shitty thing to do. Also, he's not being upfront and honest about the content of the games and his attitudes toward the people that play those games is very bigoted.
That said, it's not okay to threaten to murder Jack Thompson. Even with all his shittiness he's probably got a lot less hate mail, and I guarantee you it isn't as explicit as the stuff Sarkeesian is getting. Still wrong and not okay.
2-2 Well, she didn't say the portrayal of women is a bigger issue than extreme violence, but I'll answer anyway. It is. First of all, we don't really have much extreme violence in video games and what we do have is rarely problematic. Religious people like to complain about gore and whatnot but it's not really a problem unless someone is young enough to actually be traumatized by it.
See, violence is rarely the answer to your problems. But videogames take place in scenarios were violence IS the answer. You're a cop, or a soldier, or an innocent person suddenly drawn into a war against zombies. Even the games that involve criminal violence generally feature a protagonist with a relatively strong moral compass that gets dragged against their will into the world of organized crime. The only game that actually endorses committing violence for violence's sake that I can think of is the Saint's Row series.
It's not about the content, it's about the content in the context. Violence in violent games isn't really a problem. How many times have you been caught off guard by a violent gory scene in a game where you didn't expect it? How many times have you seen a woman in an inappropriately skimpy outfit in a game that wasn't porn? It's fucking hard to find a game that isn't like that.
3. Those people are like that partially because they are immature but primarily, it's our culture. Our culture is really misogynist, but most people don't really see it because it's taboo to talk about it. I personally didn't see it for a long time. The culture needs to change, and adding voices to the media we consume will be the fastest way to change that. Halo Kiddies will still be awful, but they'll be less misogynist and more creative with their insults when half of them have first hand experience with menstruation.
You know how some people are like "I don't have any problem with gays, I just don't like it when they shove it in my face"? That's where most people are with women right now. Women are fine, unless they shove it in your face with this "Feminism" thing. Most people feel threatened by this, and instead of actually listening they do things like saying the woman is ugly, whiny, or that what she's talking about is unimportant. The first two are just schoolyard insults and the third is flat out wrong. Nothing is so unimportant that people shouldn't talk about it on Youtube. Also sometimes they do what you're doing now. They try to punch holes in the feminist's argument without understanding what her argument is.
The questions you're asking aren't really responses to arguments she made. You're asking how individual games can be problematic - that suggests that either you aren't sure what tropes are or you really haven't tried to figure out even the basics of her arguments.
Trust me, figuring this shit out is worth it. Being neutral on Feminism is going the same way that being neutral on Racism went.
|Spaceman Africa |
God I am not reading all these
|Adham Nu'man |
Oh well, here is a nice video chronicle of how women have been portrayed in the games I played throughout ALL OF MY LIFE and CONTINUE TO PLAY TO THIS VERY DAY. It's all very reasonable, well researched and well put together and not sensationalistic at all and makes it's points clearly and without hyperbole and concludes by making a very sensible and moderate plea for greater gender inclusion in video games, therefore FUCK THIS CUNT VIDEO GAMES DIDN'T INVENT SEXISM BLARGH BLARGH BLAAAAAAAARGH MARIO PEACH SOME CRAZY STUPID SHIT BLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH.
I don't feel like I really learned anything, but I guess I don't have any real problems with this either, out side of a few Michael Moore style skewed facts and omissions here and there, but they were negligible. But hey, if this leads to more interesting and better fleshed out female characters in videogames I can't see this doing anything but good.
YOU GUYS ARE FAB-U-LOUS!
|That guy |
3 years later, I'd be interested to see this site have this discussion again, because we know a lot more about Sarky, and there's enough polarized thinking in the above comments to choke a goddamned horse.
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