|infinite zest - 2015-11-17 |
I very reluctantly clicked on this. But, I was reading somewhere that although lots of shows have been cancelled this week in Paris, fuckin Motorhead ain't one of them! Paris, like Motorhead, will endure.
"Motorhead Cancels Paris Show After Terrorist Attacks" -- 1st headline
Yeah, I'm not sure I want to click on an Eagles of Death Metal video.
I think it's way worse to go check out news shows endlessly milking this 24/7 than to check out raw footage of important events.
The former is to blame for the proliferation of shooting sprees by fame-seeking nutjobs.
Shit that sucks. It was a few days ago that I read that. But I also understand.
Who did play Paris on Wednesday? THE DICTATORS
|urbanelf - 2015-11-17 |
I feel sick now.
|Void 71 - 2015-11-17 |
And to think I defended Islam on PoeTV after 911. I've never been more wrong about anything in my life.
Sociopath, if you're reading this: You were right.
Defending sneezing is not the same as calling for the mass adoption of colds. What you probably defended were the Muslims who don't do these things having the right to not be targeted for those who do. Why feel guilty about that? No one (outside of Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, the House of Representatives, the Pentagon, and ISIS HQ) are thrilled this happened.
What ever do you mean Void? This has NOTHING to do with Islam!
But honestly I'm in the same boat. I used to vehemently defend Islam after 9/11. Holy shit was I was a moron.
The difference is that back then I feel like the average westerner was relatively ignorant of the problems that plague Islam unless they were part of it themselves at that time. I don't feel like anyone who's bothered to do minimal research before opening their mouth has that excuse now. Only the clinically progressive/insane can say with a straight face that Islamic acts of terror by Muslim extremists who quote the Quran as they're killing people have nothing to do with Islam.
No no no, you're buying into the culture of fear. I will not stoop to hating Islam. That is just knee jerk anger. I felt the same thing watching these videos just as I felt it watching the towers fall. Rage, fuss, get it out, but don't stoop to their level.
This is my response to those guys.
DQ, do you believe in the reformation of institutions? I ask because, like you guys, I defended Islam too, and, like you guys, I came to deeply regret that, but now I'm not so certain once again.
On the one hand, I hate reform, I do not believe in it in any fashion, nor will I ever argue for it. I see the Catholic church as a blight that has yet to face any kind of justice, that being its destruction, for 2000 years of outrageous bullshit. Same for every institution that existed in a way incompatible with a world we want. Destroy that shit utterly and never do it again is my emotional policy.
But on the other hand, does obliteration work, and is reform maybe the only compromise possible? My doubts about all of this runs all the way to me doubting things like democracy and secularism. Is there a way to improve the world without a policy of reform, I think, may skirt the edge of a scientifically valid question, and I would like to ask it.
I honestly do not know. But I would appreciate your input, even if insulting.
You're still a moron
everything is reform of some sort, and socially, nothing is ever "obliterated." things can be made smaller through attempted obliteration, and then reform can try to make them smaller yet.
Just reflect on the tons of other things more likely to kill you than Islamic Terror, like rednecks with guns.
I think one of the thorny issues is that if you live in the West:
A) you have met or known open-minded, agnosticy Christians who condem Christian fundies for being blinkered or insisting they understand God or advocating violence and so on. (whether those open-minded Christians are good *in spite of* religion is worth pondering) And you have met or known at least some bible-bashers.
B) you know what the vaguely ideal 'good Christian' is supposed to be like, even if they fall short and pervert it all the time.
C) you don't know either A or B about Muslims, even in your neighborhood, because nobody talks about it, and that could be for any number of reasons, so you're left to fill in the blanks. The Muslims I've been close friends with are completely apostate, and we still barely talked about what the other Muslims they know say about shit.
It's taboo.... it seems?
This also gets complicated as hell because you're left to ask questions about the literal ideology of the religion vs the same religion's culture in situ.
(And this whole ball of yarn above is hardly the only issue.)
And unfortunately, we're left in a situation where there are dangers in whatever direction we err. My temporary conclusion at least, is that I'm not interested in immigrants with truly fucked up values trying to carry those values forward into more tolerant societies, and I'm not interested in considering that they'll change IF they are ghettoized and/or IF their beliefs are akin to brainwashing.
Yes, that mean I have to make moral judgements, let alone hypothetical sociological judgements to conclude that. I'll live with it. We've had two hushed-up Islamic-State-sympathizing attacks in the US over the last few years, and I'm willing to grant that they may have happened because both assailants were mentally ill, and just looking to pin it on a cause, but I'm not willing to grant that it would continue under that apologetic umbrella if we accept fundies or allow them to grow. The Constitution isn't a suicide pact, and there's no economic room for every humanitarian-need immigrant in the world, anyway.
I meant to say PoeNews. PoeTV wasn't created until 2006 or 2007, if I remember correctly.
I gave Islam the benefit of the doubt after 911, but my position gradually became untenable as the terrorist attacks continued. Then I read the Koran from cover to cover and saw for myself that 'extremist' Muslims aren't really extreme. They're just following instructions. 'Literalist' is a more fitting term.
I also looked at what Muslims were doing in their own countries. When I found out that they were mutilating their daughter's vaginas and killing rape victims, what little sympathy I had for them began to vanish.
Recently, I've been looking at crime statistics in Europe. When I found out that Muslims are responsible for the vast majority of rapes in Sweden and Norway and comprise 70% of Norway's prison population, I began to view the 'migrant crisis' as something other than innocent Muslims looking for a better life.
Of the Abrahamic religions, Islam is currently the most dangerous by a pretty wide margin. This wasn't always the case, but we're no longer living in the age of the Crusades. Christians aren't burning people at the stake anymore, but Muslims are. Since there's no way to vet the Muslim immigrants who are pouring into Europe, to swing the gates wide open for them is altruism taken to its most pathological extreme, and it's going to end badly.
"Sociopath, if you're reading this: You were right."
Sociopath eventually realized he was a bigot and changed his tune, so make of that what you will.
I find it is very easy to not blame the whole of Islam for what its violent members do, instead I let their choices dictate how I will regard them. Those who choose to murder civilians, I wish a drone up their asses. The rest, I generally wish upon them a comfortable life and exposure to Western culture to see if there is anything they might learn from us, say, where LGBT tolerance and misogyny are concerned. Not that we can claim to be all that advanced in those departments either; our "lead" is best measured in decades, not centuries. But a lot has happened in those decades.
"Only the clinically progressive/insane can say with a straight face that Islamic acts of terror by Muslim extremists who quote the Quran as they're killing people have nothing to do with Islam."
Muslim A wants little more than to live a good life, see his family prosper, and be a positive to his community.
Muslim B wants to kill Muslim A, and what the hell, some Parisians too.
Which one is the Muslim?
Here is the answer I come to: they both are, but one is a decent person and the other is a shitty human being who will not be missed. The fact of being a Muslim is of no help at all in determining whether they'll be type A or type B.
"Then I read the Koran from cover to cover and saw for myself that 'extremist' Muslims aren't really extreme. They're just following instructions. 'Literalist' is a more fitting term."
The Koran isn't an operating system that they run, though; they're still choosing which parts they want to take seriously and which parts don't really further their worldview. So yeah, they're being literal, but only about the parts they want to be literal.
>>Just reflect on the tons of other things more likely to kill you than Islamic Terror, like rednecks with guns.
I do. It's why I don't leave my house anymore.
|Shoebox Joe - 2015-11-17 |
Memedumpster, I would like to commend you for holding on to "Terrorists are shitty and do not represent absolutely all" despite what I can only say is a vast different experience socially.
I never grew up with fear. I always had an out. And in a sad way, I was a coward since I could simply blend in.
I don't believe that reformation would even be easy and up front. Any that would even take place would be snubbed for national exposure for a myriad of reasons.
But I do believe there's at least more movement towards secularism (In what ever shape or form, negative or positive), rather than a knee jerk "I'm an atheist now!" for petty reasons, conclusions, etc.
I think the concept of religion itself is shit and could easily be denoted into the equivalent of being a part of fandom. But I admire the endurance that can be prevalent when people choose not to attach themselves to it.
I don't think the institutions will actually get their comeuppance, but will just silently decay as everyone loses interest.
Just like PoETV!!
I was raised to fear outsiders, those outsiders being people of a different color from literally one town over. Less than 20 miles away. I used to tell myself that if I can avoid being like that, maybe anyone can. I still don't know anything for certain. Two generations have been born since and it's still the same here.
I don't see religion or nationality in this anymore, the character markers for this kind of person aren't based on religion or nationality. Every cluster of humans have jihadi minded life devaluing power seeking psychopaths. USA has a whole political party and half devoted to it, and so does everyone else. The earth has devoted an entire system of token based slavery to specifically empower these people. Muslim terrorists are billionaires who found themselves dicksucking broke. They all want the same thing and will only be potentially benevolent when they get it.
If you saw the earth without any national lines and you spoke no human languages, these motherfuckers would still be glaringly obvious from space, and evenly distributed across the planet. Where they have power, they oppress people. Where they don't have power, they kill people. It's telling that there are computer algorithms that can predict human behavior to 98% that your corp can buy and run on a laptop but it takes a supercomputer complex to predict a three body orbit. Human nature is probably the simplest shit the universe does.
Also, poeTV has a secret neutron bomb arsenal and will sterilize the earth on its last day. That's what the Mayan spirits told me anyway.
Shoebox, what is your social/upbringing experience? You're referring to it for a reason, it seems.
I hear ya both. My parents raised me to want to care about my community and help others, but they still managed to instill me with fear of the other. As I grew up I've mentally come to realize the folly of this, but I can't always shake the reactions programmed in me. Now my parents are just as bigoted as all my relatives in Manitoba (fuck Winnipeg). I hope I only get better and beat the trend in my family.
I worked a couple factory jobs before getting the job I have now and they were quite ethnically diverse. The muslin guys were always the most polite, unflappable, chill people there. The white men were by far the most vile fuckers on the floor when it came "that guy". Shit heels exist across all religions and countries.
I still see it now with companies I visit, the workers on the floor will be East Indian or Middle-Eastern and the office is all white, and they say the most horrid shit about the guys on the floor. Gee, I can't imagine how animosity grows towards wester cultures.
I understand the Middle East is a total cluster fuck and we're generally not helping with all we do there and have done. There's no clear solution, but I cannot think hatred of Islam and negativity are going to do anything but make this worse.
My experience is vastly different. I grew up constantly with multiple forms and examples of never judge a book by the cover. I mention this because while a good portion of my family is shit, I didn't realize it until my early 30's that they were shit. Emotional trauma can really lag you behind with that.
Another note is that I still feel that I don't have a good reference for what it's like for different children growing up. My niece slightly has ADHD, (My psych evaluation pulled up that being a suspicion along side my noted Asperger's) and the reactions feel completely different. I was never aware of embarrassment via wealth, most likely due to the fact that even though we were poor, I never really felt included and what times I was included just didn't really feel that very strong.
I never felt strong emotions and what emotions I did feel I took with a grain of salt since they didn't seem well placed, so any social conflict was significantly arbitrary at worst case scenario. I also felt like my emotions were different than others. I think a good summary is unintentionally NOT having a backbone.
If I had more confidence in my emotions growing up, I wouldn't be surprised if I had a homophobic experience similar to Memedumpster. It may be exaggerated, but my family is different from those times, partially for the worst but with good intentions.
To sum it up, I've never had the kind of fear that Memedumpster had, either that or I'm exaggerating unintentionally.
|Spit Spingola - 2015-11-17 |
Well fuck watching this tragedy porn! I love concerts and it's my nightmare scenario. It's really bizarre that Islamic State would focus on killing a bunch of indie rock fans, but it's very easy to kill a ton of people at there are very few exits, as we've seen in school shootings.
The only good thing about this is they're losing territory in Syria and Iraq which is why there's this huge uptick in terrorism. But why Eagles of Death Metal? Not watching the video. Fuck them and their bizarre death cult.
|SolRo - 2015-11-17 |
Has liveleak always been a racism shithole or is it a more recent thing?
ogrish became liveleak. literally. there you have it.
it's always been full of foaming idiocy.
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