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Comment count is 31
EvilHomer - 2015-12-24

So, Mr That guy, which of her points (if any) do you believe are erroneous, and how would you counter her arguments?

misterbuns - 2015-12-24

^^^her fantasy that there is a difference between corportism and capitalism. yawn next.

EvilHomer - 2015-12-24

In Bernie Sanders' defense, he *is* the most libertarian-friendly of the candidates whom the media currently allows to speak, but I suspect that you yourself take issue with more than just that.

I am not trying to be a jerk here, or start an internet troll fight, I am just curious as to whether you have any rational objections to the points she raised, and if so, what they are. I'm also curious as to whether you *agree* with anything (if so, what and why?), or even if you disagree with *everyone*, and have a third/fourth/fifth alternative entirely of your own making.

Cena_mark - 2015-12-24

She made the argument that raising the minimum wage would be bad for low wage workers. Of course she opposes raising the minimum wage cause she cares about the poor so much. There might be some knee jerk firings in protest, but at the end of the day those businesses will still need labor. It'll be a big boost to the economy, because all those folks making around minimum wage will have more money to spend.
Remember all those businesses that promised massive layoffs if the Affordable Care Act was passed? They don't.

EvilHomer - 2015-12-24

Well, no, actually Misterbuns, there IS a huge difference between "corporatism" and "capitalism". They're two completely separate philosophies which make radically different assumptions about how society should function.

Capitalism is actually a very broad term, and at its basic level simply refers to an economic system in which individual investors are allowed to front the money needed to get a business or industry up and running, assuming risk in return for partial ownership over the means of production, and a share of whatever profits the business might make. Now you might say, "but EH, corporatists like the existence of private property too!", and, just as both Lenin and Hitler were "socialists", in an extremely loose sense of the word you could be right. But when Miss Token uses the word "capitalism", she is referring to a classically-liberal free-market system, a system in which markets are open, competition is encouraged, government is extremely limited, and monopolies are discouraged (opinions vary as to how best to achieve this). The overriding principle behind liberalism is the decentralization of power; the diffusion of ownership across a society of sovereign individuals, each linked together by mutual, voluntary consent.

By contrast, corporatism is a tightly regulated, closed-market system, in which an all-powerful state uses its coercive authority to grant entire sectors of the economy as fiefdoms to entrenched, dependent monopolies. These monopolies function as agencies of the state, non-competitive "public trusts" whose position is maintained by favorable regulations and corporate welfare. Corporatism is **explicitly collectivist and anti-liberal**, an unapologetically anti-free-market system that takes as a given both the necessity and social justice of central economic planning and state control - as the Corporatist's own slogan went, "everything for the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state".

EvilHomer - 2015-12-24

Cena - in your opinion, what is more important? The amount of money, or the relative buying power of money?

Cena_mark - 2015-12-24

The increase in prices due to raising the minimum wage would be very small. The increase in wages would certainly help the McDonalds employee more than the 25 cent increase in Value Meals would harm him.

EvilHomer - 2015-12-24

That's a good point, Cena. Prices do undoubtedly increase, but the price increase is small enough that workers on the lowest rung of the income bracket enjoy slightly increased advantage in terms of buying power (studies suggest that a 10% increase in minimum wage results in only a 2% increase in cost-of-living). Unfortunately, the effect of increased cost-of-living goes beyond just Value meals, effecting things like savings (devaluing the worth of money already in circulation) and future industry growth, as well as disproportionately effecting middle income, upper income, and even unemployed/ disabled/ retired individuals. Will this minimum wage hike also be accompanied by a hike in retirement pensions, Social Security, and charity for the homeless?

Might it not be better to do things like, say, placing a cap on executive salaries (which would keep prices down AND increase shareholder profits)? Or better yet, encouraging employers to offer profit-sharing incentives to their workers?

Nominal - 2015-12-24


I picture EvilHomer as King of Kong's Walter Day, complete in ref outfit, putting on a one man sock puppet tea party as he endlessly reenacts Tevye's monologues from Fiddler on the Rood.

poorwill - 2015-12-24

"Unfortunately, the effect of increased cost-of-living goes beyond just Value meals, effecting things like savings (devaluing the worth of money already in circulation) and future industry growth, as well as disproportionately effecting middle income, upper income, and even unemployed/ disabled/ retired individuals."


SolRo - 2015-12-24

Evilhomer; only exists to play devils advocated in every video, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO HIM!

Bort - 2015-12-24

Holy shit, EvilHomer, here I was saying to myself "don't get your undies in a wad over the definition of 'corporatism'", "don't get your undies in a wad over the deifinition of 'corporatism'", and then you come along and take care of it for me. Thanks!

Should point out that people use "corporatism" these days are just using it as an insult rather than anything with an actual meaning: if you have a more favorable view of, say, Monsanto than I do then I get to call you a "corporatist". The great irony is that most of the people who love to accuse others of "corporatism" wish we were more like Sweden or Norway, which actually are corporatist. There's a really irritating "Who's on First" routine to be had in there.

EvilHomer - 2015-12-24

Thanks, Bort. You and I may disagree on a lot of things, but you're a very intelligent, and extremely well-informed individual. One doesn't need to agree with TokenLibertarianGirl's opposition to corporatism - one could oppose corporatism from a different angle, or one could argue that corporatism is a good thing. But anyone who's ever studied corporatism, as the word was originally meant and as it is being used here, will know that capitalism and corporatism are not the same thing, with the corporatists THEMSELVES saying that their movement was a repudiation of capitalism and liberalism!

Anyways, Merry Christmas, guys!

misterbuns - 2015-12-24

capitalism is the fantasy. corporatism is the reality.

always has been. always will be.

Void 71 - 2015-12-24

Raising the minimum wage is a great idea in theory, but it would only work if we had a more restrictive immigration policy. America already has a surplus of people and a shortage of jobs, yet we're continuing to absorb hundreds of thousands of immigrants annually. And we're absorbing them precisely because they drive wages down. We aren't importing hordes of IT coolies from India so they can experience the American dream, and we don't have a wide-open southern border because we care deeply about poor Mexicans. As it always has, the capitalist machine is getting more and cheaper fodder wherever it can find it.

TLDR: Stop the corporations from abusing cheap foreign labor with tighter immigration restrictions, then raise the minimum wage.

That guy - 2015-12-24

EH, you're a silly person, and not to be serioused with.

The New Meat - 2015-12-25

What a shock, a libertarian brony

Cena_mark - 2015-12-24

Libertarians are so obnoxious. How did I survive as one for so long without being beaten to death?

SolRo - 2015-12-24

same way evilhomer does, internet anonymity

Cena_mark - 2015-12-24

But I discussed my views IRL. At school, work, to random people on the streets.

EvilHomer - 2015-12-24

It's because the world doesn't work as SolRo wishes it did. America is still largely a libertarian society (hence why even Bernie Sanders supporters will call themselves "liberal"), and we as a people understand that differences, diversity, and even dissent, are all good things. Most of us do not want to "beat" political dissidents "to death" because *that is insane*. Instead, we value freedom of speech and abhor the casual use of violence and coercion against outsiders.

Anyways, I thought you said you were never a libertarian, but rather a social conservative?

SolRo - 2015-12-24

see how utterly punchable he is?

EvilHomer - 2015-12-24

This thread provides a good illustration of how our respective philosophies differ, my good friend Mr SolRo and I. Myself, I like to be friendly, analyze things carefully, and persuade others using reason and logic; I try to be conscious of my bias and keep an open mind, always looking for people with differences of opinion, and amending my own opinions if they can make a convincing argument! Cena, for example, made a very intelligent point about minimum wage; I happily give him credit for that. We're great friends, and I truly believe that his perspective cannot hurt me, but rather, helps me to grow.

Meanwhile SolRo, he likes to punch people.

SolRo - 2015-12-24

You being impulsively punchable is a separate matter from whether or not I like to punch people.

A 4 year old girl would want to punch you after hearing your uncontrollable urge to be the dick of every conversation.

EvilHomer - 2015-12-24

Merry Christmas, SolRo!


Hooker - 2015-12-24

So she says the libertarian arguments in a voice that makes her sound mentally retarded?

Nominal - 2015-12-24

Libertarian arguments do that just fine on their own.

SolRo - 2015-12-24

way to t-ball that joke for him hooker.

Scrotum H. Vainglorious - 2015-12-24

Awhile ago I said would but now I change my mind.

StanleyPain - 2015-12-24

I turned it off 3 seconds in. The second that someone classifies any of Sanders' more notable positions as "being angry at rich people" or who purposefully misunderstands what Socialism is, you know you're basically talking to someone who is politically retarded.

Quad9Damage - 2015-12-26

Again, but, I'm forced to pay, the federal government, so they can spend money, on war, and imperialism.

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