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Desc:You guys. Don't judge them. That's not okay.
Category:Educational, Humor
Tags:free speech, special people, SJW, safe space, microaggressive
Submitted:Rodents of Unusual Size
Date:10/13/16
Views:1238
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Comment count is 164
bawbag
Fuck off with this 12 year old edgelord cringe shit.
bawbag
Also: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual /kyle-bristow

bawbag
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2007/n eo-nazi-preston-wiginton-joins-forces-young-americans-freedom-mich igan-state-university

bawbag
and before you say 'oh but it's Kansas' yeah I'm sure this Kansas chapter is just filled with 'concerned conservatives' and has no nazi links whatsoever.

*eyeroll*

EvilHomer
More ad hominem.

bawbag
Not biting Mr EH.

EvilHomer
Good, I don't want you to "bite" anything. I'm just trying to be helpful here, pointing out what you're (unintentionally) doing, so that you'll be more careful in the future.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>Snowflake mentality.

>>More ad hominem.

>>Fuck off with this 12 year old edgelord cringe shit.

Rodents of Unusual Size
I'm probably to the left of most people here, you fucking mongs.

I'm voting for Jill Stein and I supported Bernie Sanders. Just because I point out the social left's incredible turn for the worse, I'm somehow labeled as everything you despise about the right or alt right.

The reason I watch these videos is not because I'm voting Republican or because I'm an asshole. It's because free speech is important and you have a movement on the left which I consider to be a proto fascist cult. I pointed out in the last video I submitted that the Tea Party was also under the same category.

You're a moron if you think you can simplify me or what I stand for, or why I submit videos into "Oh ROUS is evil now, he's an asshole". No, I'm not. I'm just submitting things which are uncomfortable for you to admit are a fucking problem and you'd rather not admit they are problems.

bawbag
Brave RoUS, bravely sharing the agitprop of the far-right to make a point about free speech. SO BRAVE.

Truly believable!

Old_Zircon
I'm with ROUS on this (except for "protest voting").

Old_Zircon
I'm with ROUS on this specific point, not necessarily in general because I don't monitor people's posting history trying to unravel their political ideology to see what rating I'm supposed to give them.

The left DOES have a free speech problem, and identity politics is a market-driven distraction that is sapping the left's ability to make actual, concrete change.

EvilHomer
I'm intrigued by this "free speech" idea of yours, RoUS, but does it really have to cover speech I disagree with?

Old_Zircon
I also haven't watched the video yet, so I have no opinion on it specifically. Just saying I agree with ROUS's last post because I've seen plenty of what he's talking about in person.

John Holmes Motherfucker
I'm voting for Jill Stein and I supported Bernie Sanders. Just because I point out the social left's incredible turn for the worse, I'm somehow labeled as everything you despise about the right or alt right.

>> Just because I point out the social left's incredible turn for the worse,

By voting for Jill Stein?

When I tried to defend you, someone said "LOOK AT THE TAGS", and they had a point. One good way to let people know where you're coming from is to let people know where you're coming from.

bawbag
OZ, did you miss his full-on racist 'BLM are the new KKK and trayvon would have been a murderer anyway' meltdown and backpedal?

He's not operating with a full deck and his assertion that he's coming at this from a far left perspective (so far-left he came full circle to the far right end of the horseshoe) is so fucking dishonest it's beyond belief: e.g just one of the many examples

http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=155108

Rodents of Unusual Size
I mean if you're willing to one star anything I submit because you want to be an SJW yourself, condemning me for something that happened months ago, you are free to, but I'm going to call you out on it. You're not saving anyone from me or taking some grand stand against evil by doing so.

I have five starred videos submitted by people I don't care for because I rate the video and not the submitter. I wasn't present for the drama that was orcs and only know the bare bones of the story but I can assure you I'm not a gay Nazi (although that would be kind of funny and ironic). The fact you want to one star perfectly good videos that belong here is a clear indication that you want me to stop posting on this site simply because you view that as a form of silencing me and you want me to go away. Don't you think that's a problem? You want everyone to have a voice unless they disagree with you? Do you notice the irony of that given what I'm submitting?

I don't hate any of you but if you hate me because you think I represent a point of view that doesn't match your version of reality where the bullshit from the left should never be mentioned because it's embarrassing, that means you're kind of being a dick, imo. It's not really being honest and it's a cartoonish and revisionist way of looking at the universe, and it's no better than the worst of the Bo News crowd and the bullshit they would pull by hijacking POE by demonizing anyone they didn't like as racist, homophobic, etc.

I mean, one of the idiots in this video is obviously flamingly gay but I notice you aren't calling me homophobic for pointing out that he's annoying as fuck and his screeching voice makes most people's skin crawl, my own included. The fact is, I am repulsed by people like him, not because he's gay but because he is a very special level of brainwashed.

Bort
RoUS, supporting Sanders or Jill Stein doesn't make you progressive. It makes you a white person who thinks that government can help you prosper economically. That's it. It sure as hell doesn't require you to be a good person, in fact all it points to is that you've mastered self-interest.

As for the rest, you sound like a garden variety right-wing jackass who discovered his resentment and grievances aren't playing as well to his audience as he expected.

You ever wonder how 20-year-olds can all be Lefties yet somehow old people are insufferably conservative? You are a study in the transition process. The main difference between you and the hateful racist grandparent whom nobody mourns is that you see the government as a possible boon to your economic fortunes rather than a force that overtaxes you. Flip that one detail and your transformation will be complete, without a single principle having to change.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>I'm intrigued by this "free speech" idea of yours, RoUS, but does it really have to cover speech I disagree with?

YES, VIRGINIA!

I'll keep saying it. Free speech means you get to have a Klan rally. Nobody thinks that your first amendment rights are violated if I don't let you have your Klan Rally in my apartment.

Free speech means exactly what it has always meant, but now we have some trolls trying to expand free speech to mean "the right to troll". They're demanding the right to not be banned by Twitter just for participating in a group harassment incident. Oscar Vile (aka Milo Yiannopolous) talks about being banned from Twitter like it's for his right wing views. That's nonsense, there are about a half-billion right wing nuts on Twitter, but if Twitter wants to ban all conservatives, they can. And they always could. And they always will be able to. Because Freedom of speech still means what it has always meant.

Rodents of Unusual Size
"He's not operating with a full deck and his assertion that he's coming at this from a far left perspective (so far-left he came full circle to the far right end of the horseshoe) is so fucking dishonest it's beyond belief: e.g just one of the many examples"

I have been pretty upfront. I have never lied about my opinions or tried to hide them. I apologized for the Trayvon Martin remark because I felt that it was jaded and cynical, but not totally removed from the reality that is the world we are living in. If you want to paint me as crazy because I disagree with you, try harder bawbag. You don't get to tell me what my beliefs are, and my submitting videos like this proves that socially speaking there is a movement that I view as inherently dangerous because it takes onto itself the idea of AUTOMATICALLY DECIDING WHO IS TO BE DEMONIZED IN AN INSTANT based on political affiliation or even the perceived notion of political affiliation. Can you not see how vacuous that is as a philosophy?

You also seem to think that you can associate people as being KKK members or Nazi level racists without being questioned or challenged as if you get to scream the word out like it was gospel because your morality and ethics are automatically superior to my own and anyone you even remotely suspect to be racist, etc.

I have a problem with this because it is a wholly illogical and hysterical reaction.

bawbag
"You also seem to think that you can associate people as being KKK members or Nazi level racists without being questioned or challenged"

That's rich from you Mr 'BLM are racist killers and the new KKK'

That's not even a half-deck you're operating with at this point.

Rodents of Unusual Size
"RoUS, supporting Sanders or Jill Stein doesn't make you progressive. It makes you a white person who thinks that government can help you prosper economically. That's it. It sure as hell doesn't require you to be a good person, in fact all it points to is that you've mastered self-interest."

Then why do I advocate prison and education reform? Nice try, though. I believe in the economic model not just because of self interest. I genuinely want an economically healthy middle class and to stamp out poverty. That doesn't come from selfishness. That comes from a very real desire to end unnecessary suffering.

"As for the rest, you sound like a garden variety right-wing jackass who discovered his resentment and grievances aren't playing as well to his audience as he expected."

Because you have a pre-conceived notion of where I'm coming from and you want to dismiss anything I say because of it? If your only reason for reacting to me with disdain is that you think I'm a conservative alt right pro Trumper, you're way off, pal. I call em like I see em. You can't boil me down to the sterotype you want to and you're just as guilty of stereotyping as anyone on the other side you make that accusation to.

"You ever wonder how 20-year-olds can all be Lefties yet somehow old people are insufferably conservative?"

They aren't all Lefties. There are plenty of older liberals. That is an absurd statement.

"You are a study in the transition process. The main difference between you and the hateful racist grandparent whom nobody mourns is that you see the government as a possible boon to your economic fortunes rather than a force that overtaxes you. Flip that one detail and your transformation will be complete, without a single principle having to change."

First of all, I've spent most of my life being poor and it fucking sucks. I have taken risks to fight that on a level I can't even describe. Why you suddenly think I'm selfish enough to only want things for myself makes me think you have some fucking problems. I'm not your grandparents, asshole. Your references are all totally imaginary and nebulous at best. I see the government as a force that is eroding rights away from either of the two parties. Taxes are primarily misspent and if we used a social democratic model that advocated less burden on the poor, that would make me quite happy. Why wouldn't it? Why is it you think only old conservatives are concerned with where taxes are spent? I was just as concerned with that issue when I was far more socially to the left.

You seem to have a lot of ideas about what people believe that don't apply to me at all, whatsoever.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>I'm just submitting things which are uncomfortable for you to admit are a fucking problem and you'd rather not admit they are problems.

There's a reason why I'd rather not admit that the left want to take away our freedom because they're all a bunch of hypersensitive special snowflakes:

ITS HORSESHIT!

There are valid criticisms to be made. They need to be made. You ain't makin em. This is crap. Last time it was a crazy old lady yelling gibberish. Crap. Crap. Crap.

bawbag
"There are valid criticisms to be made. They need to be made. You ain't makin em. This is crap. Last time it was a crazy old lady yelling gibberish. Crap. Crap. Crap."

Exactly.

Rodents of Unusual Size
"That's rich from you Mr 'BLM are racist killers and the new KKK'

That's not even a half-deck you're operating with at this point."

They often advocate guilt and shame tactics for anyone that disagrees with them and attempt to humiliate people for being perceived racists. There is a video of hundreds of BLM protesters loudly screaming to kill cops and a video from Portland where a BLM leader was attempting to coerce people to murder. These aren't isolated incidents, and it isn't the majority of the movement but it is a faction within it and they do not recognize it publicly as a problem that needs addressing. The reason I point this out is because BLM thinks its shit doesn't stink, and concludes black people can't be racist. I find this aggravatingly illogical.

When I found the video of black people loudly claiming they were going to round up all the white people they could find to beat the shit out of them or even kill, (again, not even an isolated incident for what happened in the Milwaukee riots) well dude, if that isn't the black KKK, then I don't know what is.

I have friends in the BLM movement, one of whom no longer speaks to me because I didn't believe BLM was the only way to fight racism and I feel BLM doesn't condemn these actions when it needs to. Instead it pretends they don't exist, and that is setting a precedent, and it creates a narrative that black crime is all attributable to white colonialism. I disagree with this philosophy and I think it creates more race hatred and does more harm than good.

As much as they don't want to admit that their tone and agenda have not resulted in violence against cops, I don't buy it. The shooter said himself he was directly influenced by BLM and inspired to kill for them.

I refuse to back down and apologize for anything I've said about BLM. They are not a part of the peace movement and they are not interested in the peace movement so long as they refuse to condemn the actions of members within their ranks that advocate violence and directly admit that is happening within the organization. Denial will lead to even more violence.

Rodents of Unusual Size
"There's a reason why I'd rather not admit that the left want to take away our freedom because they're all a bunch of hypersensitive special snowflakes:

ITS HORSESHIT!

There are valid criticisms to be made. They need to be made. You ain't makin em. This is crap. Last time it was a crazy old lady yelling gibberish. Crap. Crap. Crap."

So the fact that I've submitted videos of leftists saying they want to take away freedom of speech doesn't lead you to believe that there are ever leftists who want to take away freedom of speech.

Now that is comedy.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>So the fact that I've submitted videos of leftists saying they want to take away freedom of speech doesn't lead you to believe that there are ever leftists who want to take away freedom of speech.

"some leftists" = "the left"

crapitty crap crap.

Rodents of Unusual Size
I never generalized the entire left. Your point is...?

Old_Zircon
"bawbag
OZ, did you miss his full-on racist 'BLM are the new KKK and trayvon would have been a murderer anyway' meltdown and backpedal? "


As a matter of fact, I did.

Old_Zircon
Oh, I rescind my endorsement and now endorse Bawbag, and am now going to content myself with watching the BORT/ROUS shit flinging content in the knowledge that I've got no horse in THAT race.

Old_Zircon
Also everyone speaking in this video seems pretty awful, this is just the real life version of social media.

Way to not accomplish anything or even voice a coherent statement, protesters. This is how you alienate otherwise sympathetic potential allies.

Way to be Young Americans for Freedom, Young Americans for Freedom. We can always hope you'll grow out of this phase but you probably won't, and now you're just a little less likely to than you were before.

Old_Zircon
Or maybe not, I don't know. ROUS has made valid points throughout this conversation, and I don't have the backstory so fuck it, the only winning move is not to play.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>I never generalized the entire left. Your point is...?

My point is that when you submit shit videos like this, and say you're doing it to criticize the left, it doesn't matter what point you're actually trying to make. It doesn't matter if you're right, or I'm wrong. If you want to get your point across, you're going to need to do it better.

Rodents of Unusual Size
If you want to judge me based on my words, go for it. I just ask you don't judge me based on secondhand sources here. If you want, read the links they post that showcase the conversations they point to or go through my history. Then believe what you want.

15th
Barring RoUS's motives, this and other clips do showcase a real part of Left. It might not be significant or that important, but it exists none-the-less. I feel no need as a progressive to defend zealots and busy-bodies, just because they are part of the 'team.'


College kids are stupid and passionate. Hopefully they'll grow out of it, and become the best middle managers they can be.

bawbag
"If you want to judge me based on my words..." start here: http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=155108

Then go through his other edgy video submissions, also check the sources of said videos, then check the tags, descriptions and insanely reactionary RoUS ranting in the comments of each if you care to do so.

You know, say what you will of orcs (or any of the other racist shitheels that occasionally post here) but he was frank and open about his racist proclivities rather than hiding it under byzantine layers of falsehood, backpedalling and denial.

'Scratch a liberal...'

Bort
Barring RoUS's motives, you're right: there are definitely Lefties who go too far policing and even bullying others. I don't think anyone would deny that, though it's possible for people to have different opinions on individual cases.

But RoUS's motives DO matter, they provide a context (however indirectly expressed), and that context seems to BE the focus of debate. Not that RoUS is exactly being subtle, between the video description and tags. We've got a pretty good idea where he stans -- which he confirmed in his comments -- and that's what the shouting is about.

bawbag
"Not that RoUS is exactly being subtle, between the video description and tags. We've got a pretty good idea where he stans -- which he confirmed in his comments -- and that's what the shouting is about."

This, thank you.

His attempts to walk it back and retcon it as an exercise in introspective critique of the left from his self-described far-left position is so patently false too given that selfsame context.

15th
Bort, that's fair enough. I can understand that. I haven't been following RoUS's journey too closely. Maybe he just really dislikes this brand of Leftism? I know his BLM opinions were, uh, interesting...

I'd be willing to take RoUS's words at face value, because how could I ever know what's truly in his rodenty heart?

Why would someone veil their bigotry if they are operating with anonymity?

bawbag
"Why would someone veil their bigotry if they are operating with anonymity?"

To save face with the other posters here who've known him for years would be my guess, coupled with some serious self-denial.

Rodents of Unusual Size
The fact you think I'm trying to hide something is hilarious to me, bawbag. You have been on this crusade primarily because I didn't pay attention to the Youtube channel I submitted from, and that is something that has been dragged out for a while now. You use this as "evidence" that I'm racist but it's not evidence. I am being honest when I said I didn't pay attention to the user channel. In fact, I almost never do. I usually don't give a rat's ass. It usually doesn't matter.

You're paranoid when you say I'm "hiding my true racism". It's stupid, and I'm honest and upfront about criticizing BLM because I TRULY believe they are a cult. I have illustrated several times why I oppose their bullshit tactics and shameless attention seeking.

What I really don't get is the mentality that goes into someone just waiting and waiting and waiting on the fucking internet until they get the chance to scream RACISM! because it gives them a thrill. Can you explain this to me? Because if that is all you are actively looking for, you are going to see it everywhere. And the fact that you see it in me is because you're already pissed off and you want to see it in someone and you want others to validate you by backing you up because you get something out of it. Which I also don't get.

This is the SJW mentality I despise. These people are just looking for the opportunity to scream at people about racism. Just itching for the opportunity to be seen as morally superior. It just makes everyone irritated with your perpetual need to demonize, and it's no better than what Maoists did in the Cultural Revolution. If they had any true power, we'd be seeing anti racism circles in the streets of purported racists being jeered at and made to wear dunce caps and paraded through the streets for people to pelt with garbage.

Bort
But this place isn't exactly anonymous, is it? I am identifiable as "Bort"; my "Bort" persona matters to me at least a little, and I would rather be well-received here than not. I figure most people are at least a little bit the same.

Bort
"What I really don't get is the mentality that goes into someone just waiting and waiting and waiting on the fucking internet until they get the chance to scream RACISM! because it gives them a thrill. Can you explain this to me? "
Yes! Nobody wants you to be a racist tool, but when you reveal yourself to be one, people call you on it. That's not a matter of people delighting in picking on you; rather it's people who don't like you being an asshole.

You sound increasingly like the hateful racist grandparent that nobody mourns. Your choice.

bawbag
"You have been on this crusade primarily because I didn't pay attention to the Youtube channel I submitted from..."

No, the hostility aimed at you is to do with your own horribly shitty, racist and otherwise alt-reich-esque edgy opinions and your insistence that you're some sort of objective party in the 'debate' such as it is. Quit being a milquetoast and take some goddamn responsibility for your unpopular opinions.

The combination of your far-right extremist sources, tags, descriptions and your own screeds in the comments belie all of your cackhanded attempts to explain it all away as 'just holding up a mirror guys!' so feel free to drop that any time you like, no one's buying it.

Last but not least, that introspective critique you seem to think the 'leftist media' needs so badly would do you a power of good on a personal level, I suggest you try it.

Rodents of Unusual Size
Well thank God you are exposing me for the sake of the truth! Here I was thinking I could hide all my true motives to make everyone at PoeTV a frothing racist Nazi!

You are a ridiculous cartoon and your attempts to paint me the way you want to see me are only based on your imagination.

"His attempts to walk it back and retcon it as an exercise in introspective critique of the left from his self-described far-left position is so patently false too given that selfsame context."

You don't get to tell me what I believe on the political spectrum. You don't get to say where I stand on things, and you don't get to tell me that I am not on the far left. I don't believe in the new phenomenon of inventing imaginary foes to fight just so you have something to do.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>If you want to judge me based on my words, go for it. I just ask you don't judge me based on secondhand sources here. If you want, read the links they post that showcase the conversations they point to or go through my history. Then believe what you want.

Okay, I'll meet you halfway. I'm going to continue to believe what I want.

ROUS, you need to be responsible for getting your point across. Making other people responsible for getting the point just isn't going to work. Some people are going to refuse to get the point, and can be dismissed, but I'm actually a little dense, and easily triggered. So I don't pay much attention to things that piss me off anymore, like this video. Maybe I'm a special snowflake, but I think I'm just an ordinary snowflake, although I may not have as much time to waste as y'all.


You know, when I said

>>There's a reason why I'd rather not admit that the left want to take away our freedom because they're all a bunch of hypersensitive special snowflakes:

>>ITS HORSESHIT!

It was in response to this:

>>No, I'm not. I'm just submitting things which are uncomfortable for you to admit are a fucking problem and you'd rather not admit they are problems.

Which wasn't really about you

And it was also a response to the fucking video. It wasn't a response to you as a person, or every opinion you've ever had. I'm not good at keeping track of that. I have a vague idea that you and I share some musical tastes, or something.

But these submissions aren't very good. They get voted up, so it's not entirely your fault. Maybe you should just not care about pissing people off. That'll work, too.

I know some people are attacking you personally, and I don't agree with that.

memedumpster
Delta S equals Q over T, you guys.

bawbag
Shouldn't that Q be a delta Q meme?

Bort
::rubbing my eyes in disbelief:: You're all about thermodynamics today meme. But your Q has to be a delta as well (for a constant temperature).

Bort
Shit bawbag, why do you keep posting just before I do? Where'd you hide the camera?

Cena_mark
Christ, we lefties don't have a "Free speech problem", we're not calling for any government enforced bans on free speech. We just let you know that your Nazi talk isn't socially acceptable.

memedumpster
I am mocking you all for being political animals.

If you must thoroughly enjoy dragging civilization down to a level where it wont survive, I have to get my kicks from that somehow.

I say this with actual boiling anger : if you know enough to correct me on thermodynamics, being political makes you a manchild.

There is no excuse for politics beyond stupidity.

Now excuse me while I go donate to something.

Spaceman Africa
I'm glad ROUS is a fellow Jill Stein voter. I await her nationally subsidized Orgone chamber program.

Bort
I'm not only a political animal, I follow the blog:

http://washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/

EvilHomer
Boy, this will go down well.
bawbag
Baleen pretty much nailed it:

"I would raise this to 5 for evil if it wasn't coming from the wrong place. ROUS, I don't like whatever it is the fuck you've become or why you've become it. You changed a lot since you started posting here a long time ago.

We submit evil shit for being evil... There are a million sites where these people can watch "feminists get rekt."
You are not submitting this because of the evilness of the footage, you are engaging in the thought process of the channel, which is why you are becoming a garbage person.

Are you enraged by political correctness and black lives matter? What's going on?"

That guy
bawbag, this is video an "assholes all around" thing, and I don't agree with baleen's blanket statement about 'feminists get rekt' never being appropriate here. You're both wrong on that. Stop being tendentious as fuck.

I'll one-star this one because of what you pointed out about YAF from splcenter, because I won't stand for that shit, and for ROUS' seeming heel-turn. Come back, ROUS.

But let's not pretend the left shits roses, shall we? I'm not going to overlook the bad behavior of the left in general, and it does belong here.

bawbag
Oh the left is chock-full of fuckwits, don't get me wrong but I'll generally side with the people shouting down actual hate groups versus the weaselly 'but BLM is a hate group, bill clinton's a rapist!' false equivalency brigade from the right and alt-reich.

EvilHomer
Mr Bawbag, I agree that there is a "false equivalency" between the popular warring narratives, "Trump talks dirty" and "Bill Clinton has been repeatedly accused of rape", but I'm wondering if perhaps we see that false equivalency differently...?

bawbag
In other news:
http://io9.gizmodo.com/united-airlines-kicks-passenger-off-bec ause-of-marvel-s-1787717851

Rodents of Unusual Size
I don't think baleen nailed anything. He got it 100% wrong.

Especially this:

"you are engaging in the thought process of the channel"

So, here's a quandary for you. The leftist media tries to bury this shit as much as the right tries to promote it. So what channel am I supposed to submit it from if only conservatives are willing to broadcast it?

Our society thrives off of either side trying to bury whatever makes them look like the idiots they all are.

Caminante Nocturno
The funniest thing about videos like this one is how humorless, defensive, and downright angry some people here become, because they see way too much of themselves in these particular exhibits.

bawbag
"The funniest thing about..."

Oh look, poe's resident paedophile waifu pillow fucker with yet another of the exact same pat responses he reserves when he has nothing of worth to add.

Caminante Nocturno
Bawbag is what would happen if the feminist bookstore from Portlandia had a baby and abandoned it in a Tumblr page.

EvilHomer
I always assumed it was a given that you should listen to as many different viewpoints as possible - and pay particularly close attention to the viewpoints of those you disagree with. If "our side" is trying to bury something, that's all the more reason to examine that thing closely. I *assumed* this was a given, but perhaps I was wrong?

There's also the whole ad hominem issue again - but sadly, irrelevant character-assassination and emotional non-arguments have become so central to the American mindset, that pointing it out is probably futile.

bawbag
"Bawbag is what would happen if the feminist bookstore from Portlandia had a baby and abandoned it in a Tumblr page."

I thank the lord I'm not a baby or else you'd have tried to fuck me already.

John Holmes Motherfucker
I always assumed it was a given that you should listen to as many different viewpoints as possible - and pay particularly close attention to the viewpoints of those you disagree with.

How quaint!

Homer, I don't listen to anyone who pisses me off. And now I don't get pissed off nearly as much as I used to. You can express all sorts of opinions without pissing me off, if you care. Most people on the internet really don't care, so it's a huge time saver.

If you can manage to express a coherent thought without using terms like "cuck", "mangina", "nigger", "SJW", or "special snowflake", you can have my attention for more than five seconds. After that, who knows?

Rodents of Unusual Size
"Bawbag is what would happen if the feminist bookstore from Portlandia had a baby and abandoned it in a Tumblr page."

Yeah, and I add that the minute Caminante disagreed with you, you painted him as a pedophile. If that were true, he would have been the subject of a lot more scrutiny in the past and people would have banded together to ask him to leave a long time ago.

"I always assumed it was a given that you should listen to as many different viewpoints as possible - and pay particularly close attention to the viewpoints of those you disagree with. If "our side" is trying to bury something, that's all the more reason to examine that thing closely. I *assumed* this was a given, but perhaps I was wrong?"

What? That would require being self aware and not afraid of criticizing people that share some of your beliefs rather than hunting for people who are from another political spectrum you can..wait...

"There's also the whole ad hominem issue again - but sadly, irrelevant character-assassination and emotional non-arguments have become so central to the American mindset, that pointing it out is probably futile."

THANK YOU! Yes. This. All this.

bawbag
"Yeah, and I add that the minute Caminante disagreed with you, you painted him as a pedophile. If that were true, he would have been the subject of a lot more scrutiny in the past and people would have banded together to ask him to leave a long time ago."

Actually, I've been consistently pointing out that he's a paedophile for some months, and I'm far from the first, last or only poster here to point out his grossness, but sure you run with that angle now you're feeling 'delicate'.

Rodents of Unusual Size
Wow, you sure are changin' things up around here for the better, sheriff! Time for a pedophile posse, if ya ask me! Yessir, jus' round em up and run em outta town! Good thing you came along to save our lil' ol' site from them varmints!

John Holmes Motherfucker
"Bawbag is what would happen if the feminist bookstore from Portlandia had a baby and abandoned it in a Tumblr page."

>>Yeah, and I add that the minute Caminante disagreed with you, you painted him as a pedophile.

"Pedophile" may be over the line, but the first ad hominem was about two seconds into this video. After "snowflake mentality", I'm not going to give a fuck, you can't make me give a fuck, and i can't imagine why you would expect me to give a fuck. There are ways to have a respectful discussion, and if you're older than thirteen, and your IQ is above 75, you should be able to figure them out.

bawbag
RoUS then:----"people would have banded together to ask him to leave a long time ago."

RoUS now:---"Time for a pedophile posse, if ya ask me! Yessir, jus' round em up and run em outta town!"

Which RoUS are we speaking to now? You don't seem to be able to decide.

Rodents of Unusual Size
I'm using sarcasm you fucking mong.

bawbag
Step 1 of 'I was only trolling guys! lol' damage control.

Rodents of Unusual Size
I'm not trolling when I say you're a fucking idiot.

poorwill
nah
Pillager
The horrors of the regressive left.
Cena_mark
There's no such thing as the regressive left. It's a load of crap. Usually whenever I'm accused of being such a thing it's like this.

Alt-right jackass: I hate Muslims, I want to have them all killed in extermination camps.

Me: I disagree. I don't think Muslims should be persecuted.

Alt-right jackass: OMG!!! You're such a regressive leftist, you love Islam and all it's teachings, and you want sharia law imposed on Americans!!!

Rodents of Unusual Size
You do realize that some people oppose Islam for very real legal reasons, right? You do realize that Muslims that emigrate push for sharia systems in the countries they settle in, right?

Cena_mark
Yes ROUS, I'm aware. What I'm saying is that one can stand up for the rights of Muslims and stand up against hateful anti-Muslim bigotry, and still oppose Sharia Law and Islam's treatment of women and gays.
I'm sorry, did my nuanced views an issue blow your binary brain?

Enjoy
How will they survive life?
Rodents of Unusual Size
Maybe you guys should really rethink why you are so afraid now to deal with videos that showcase the same level of insanity on the left that gripped the country when the Tea Party was in full swing.
bawbag
Good one yeah bro, some activist 101 naive fuckwit SJW students are definitely the same thing as the seething mass of armed nutcases in the tea party and openly racist resurgent white nationalist nazis with a candidate for presidency who openly supports many of their most fucked up, anti-freedom aims.

Keep dropping them truth bombs from your position on the far-left where we refer to things as 'Leftist' all the time. Again, super believable guy!

Tl;dr: FAAAARRRT

Rodents of Unusual Size
Actually, nice try, but they really aren't that different. Both are mass movements of people brought together by an intense political anger that they think of as moral superiority. The fact that you don't realize why the two should not be combined or conflated is proof that you are not objective.

You don't have to answer this question but I am genuinely curious. Do you agree with or relate to the beliefs of the people in this video?

bawbag
"The fact that you don't realize why the two should not be combined or conflated"

I am the one -not- conflating or combining them, because they're very different in practice. You're the guy seeking to do otherwise with largely far-right-friendly agitprop and then claiming to be objective about it.

Rodents of Unusual Size
"I am the one -not- conflating or combining them, because they're very different in practice. You're the guy seeking to do otherwise with largely far-right-friendly agitprop and then claiming to be objective about it."

Oh, this is rich. You're the one who is on a moral crusade today, bawbag. I am merely laughing at dumb college students. You're trying to lead the charge of some ill conceived fight against racism by shitting your accusations all over everything I submit.

And you're not answering whether or not you agree with or relate to the philosophy of the SJWs in this video. So that's interesting.

bawbag
RoUS now:----"you're not answering whether or not you agree with or relate to the philosophy of the SJWs in this video."

WHY WON'T U ANSWER????

RoUS then:----"You don't have to answer this question"

Rodents of Unusual Size
You don't have to answer, but the fact that you won't is pretty interesting! I'm just assuming by your tactics and need to scream accusations at me that you are in line with the general SJW regressive left philosophy.

Which makes you an idiot.

bawbag
"I'm just assuming..."

Yes, yes you are. It's common to deflect like this when you're on the back foot, being called out for the shitty opinions you have been repeatedly shown to hold over a long period of time.

"Sure though, bawbag you're probably a pansysexual with rainbow hair and THOSE glasses and a rainbow t-shirt in XXXL lolz amirite gais TRIGGURED!11..."

...which would excuse your horribly racist bullshit not one jot, even if it were true. I'm too old for the rainbow hair and the rest of it though :^]

"Leftist media" "regressive left"

Surely yes, these are descriptors actual left-wing people use unironically aaaall the time. You done poorly bullshitting your way out of the hole you've dug yet?

Rodents of Unusual Size
You really have me against the wall, detective. You've got me. Call the Race Police on me!

You are a really deluded guy, and the fact that you think that you are chasing me down on the hunt for my racism, and are somehow proving this is probably the most ludicrous thing I've ever come across on this website, and that is saying a lot.

Your paraphrasing also needs work.

bawbag
"you think that you are chasing me down on the hunt for my racism..."

You're implying it took effort to show you being a racist, stupid edgelord.

A cursory glance at your video submissions or comment history is all it took, truly though I must be the fucking Sherlock Holmes of poetv with these sort of investigative chops...

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>I don't agree with baleen's blanket statement about 'feminists get rekt' never being appropriate here.

If that's what baleen had said, I would agree with you. Feminism is not above criticism, and sometimes feminists can be bullies, too.

I think what baleen was saying was closer to: this is a stupid video, presented unironically, and we have higher standards here.
bawbag
I know right?

Honestly, I can't wait for the eventual backpedalling that always happens here 'Oh I was just doing a bit!'.

At least with EH that's believable and y'know, he's actually good at it.


Old_Zircon
EH is the flametender.

Caminante Nocturno
Some day, someone like her is going to run for public office, and the footage will be amazing.
StanleyPain
This woman complained about bullying, so to prove how stupid she is and how she doesn't have a point...we're....bullying her.... on the internet.
bawbag
b-b-b-but the evil SJWs shouted at some neo-reactionary nazi types, it's the same!! Also blm is totes the KKK now, god you regressive lefties and your silencing freedoms!

Rodents of Unusual Size
So this counts as bullying her? How? Please do tell how criticizing one's viewpoint as misguided equates to bullying. She's an adult and put her opinion out into the universe for everyone to see. Same with Trigglypuff I.

Rodents of Unusual Size
So you just described the conservatives in this video as Nazis. Just wanted to point that out.

bawbag
It's almost like YAF has -actually- courted nazis and reactionaries and the SPLC has designated them as an actual hate group or something...

bawbag
Are we going to go into the 'but do they strictly adhere to the tenets of National Socialism though' territory because I want to strap myself in if we're going on that particular legalistic rollercoaster of interpretative, pedantic horseshit.

Rodents of Unusual Size
I didn't know that everyone in the Young Americans for Freedom was a Neo Nazi. But now I know! Thanks, bawbag! You're the coolest!

bawbag
No no, some of them just grew into full-fledged nazis, or openly joined/founded nazi groups. Some are just friends of nazis or totally objective people who're happy to pay and invite nazi speakers to their events.

Nothing to see here, clearly just average conservatives fighting for freedoms.

Rodents of Unusual Size
I had to actually look this up. The Southern Poverty Law Center labeled the MSU chapter a hate group in the 2000s because Neo Nazis took over the YAF chapter there and caused all sorts of chaos and deeply fought with everyone including other conservatives.

Then the entire YAF was apparently brought under one umbrella rather than have loose independent chapters in 2011. That's about as much as I can discern but apart from the MSU nonsense, I'm not finding much about them being affiliated with Neo Nazis, and I doubt the people in this video are just because you want them to be so you can scream at them.

I am learning so much today! By the way, who the fuck are you, bawbag? Were you over at PoeRed or BoNews? Or are you a new special snowflake?

bawbag
I find it amusing that you think the 'It was only one chapter doing racism' is an argument given your insane ranting about ALL of BLM being racist killers who follow mass murderer Shakur and hate all whites forever more!.

Not that I think they're actually directly comparable arguments btw before you have an 'AH-HAH!' attack, but -very interesting- take there by your own standards.

Here's some of YAF's reportage, you might recognise some of it as practically your own stances:http://www.yaf.org/news/sheriff-clarke-says-what-were-all- thinking-about-black-lives-matter/
http://www.yaf.org/news/10329-2/
http://www.yaf.org/news/pc-police-posters/

"I am learning so much today!"

I'll believe that when I see it.

"By the way, who the fuck are you, bawbag? Were you over at PoeRed"

Yup. Professional lurker since college in '99/'00-ish, only ever signed up here with this username though.

Rodents of Unusual Size
I've said numerous times that not all of BLM are violent and I never said all of them were racist killers. That is not to say that these things are not happening within their ranks, and I've cited these incidents whether it's beating up innocent homeless men to going in front of a judge because of an attempt to incite violence against all white people and the police.

The fact that BLM doesn't ever admit there's a problem is a problem.

I really like Sheriff Clarke and I think he's an absolutely brilliant man.

I won't defend any Nazi infiltration into YAF. I've only vaguely heard of YAF before now, and I stand by this video 100% as being an example of total insanity that is worthy of PoeTV. As far as Google searches go, MSU was the only chapter to pop up at all that mentioned Nazis. The SPLC singled them out.

But really, from what I read, the MSU branch of YAF seems to have a lot in common with BLM in terms of shameless race baiting and attention whoring. They both suck.

The modern alt right movement is necessary, though. Any movement that defends free speech is an important one and right now the special snowflakes out there don't seem to have a lot of respect for the 1st amendment or care. And I do find that frightening. It is a decidedly anti-intellectual philosophy devoid of value. And this has happened swiftly. Within the past five years this movement has been sweeping across colleges and universities. This is a reversal. In the early days of the Iraq War, liberals were the open minded peace seeking faction. They were the voice of REASON. Now that is dwindling and that reasoning is threatened by extremely volatile knee jerk reactions proclaiming anyone that doesn't agree with their side is morally bankrupt and unethical.

So you can defend these people if you want. I think you want to, bawbag. You haven't spoken one word about the content of the actual video and what you think of their behavior and I for one am all ears!

bawbag
"The modern alt right movement is necessary, though. Any movement that defends free speech is an important one"

Defending a primarily white-nationalist neo-reactionary movement, and championing it as a defender of free speech no less.

Good job proving me wrong on your politics, it actually appears to be even worse than I've stated in this thread.

Rodents of Unusual Size
So you think the alt right is a Nazi movement? I just want to make sure I understand your utter lunacy.

bawbag
RoUS sputtered: "So you think the alt right is a Nazi movement? I just want to make sure I understand your utter lunacy."


I actually called it "a primarily white-nationalist neo-reactionary movement" but the two dovetail quite well.


It's the sort of thing that's so obvious it would even be on the wikipedia article, or written in the sidebar on nearly every alt-right subreddit, or crowed about by the literal white supremacist daily stormer.

-----From the wiki:"The alt-right has no formal ideology, although various sources and alt-right figures have stated that white nationalism is fundamental. It has also been associated with white supremacism, anti-Islamism, antifeminism, antisemitism, ethno-nationalism, right-wing populism, nativism, traditionalism, and the neoreactionary movement."

-----From r/alt-right
"Another core principle of the Alt-Right is Identitarianism. Identitarianism is the prioritization of social identity, regardless of political persuasion. Thus, the Alt-Right promotes White Identity and White Nationalism."

-----Daily Stormer: "Daily Stormer – The World's #1 Alt-Right and Pro-Genocide Website "

It's almost like you pretending it isn't is the sort of position only a dishonest racist fucking idiot could reason their way into. Thank you for proving my point though :)

Rodents of Unusual Size
You're equating conservatism with Nazism. Nothing that you post is going to be able to defend that notion. It's hyperbolic to such an extreme degree as to be indefensible. You're talking about millions of people. How many Nazis do you think are in America? Are you one of those poor souls that thinks everyone voting for Trump is a Nazi?

bawbag
I fucking called this line of your shitty argument out earlier too.

"Are we going to go into the 'but do they strictly adhere to the tenets of National Socialism though' territory because I want to strap myself in if we're going on that particular legalistic rollercoaster of interpretative, pedantic horseshit."

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideolo gy/white-nationalist

Do go on though, please dig your untenable position even deeper.

15th
STEM 4 EVER
bawbag
CHEMIST!

Old_Zircon
STEM is even worse.

15th
Wait, what? You're not suppose to have emotions.

15th
OZ, STEM cuck has been in my deck since you wrote it a while back. I'm still waiting to use it.

memedumpster
I learned recently that physicists and chemists have a good-natured faux animosity towards one another, and have been enjoying the hijinks a lot.

15th
Poetv recommendation update II: I ordered QED. Hopefully it piques my interest further. I'm in a physics class now that is unfortunately supporting my pet theory that I'm an idiot.

Bort
Looking down on engineers is real too. Not in a "Big Bang Theory" way, but there are a lot of undergraduate engineers whose perspective is, "I don't need to understand where the formulas come from, just give me the formulas and I can get to work". Which leads to the hilarious spectacle of trying to use kinematics equations to describe objects moving under an inverse-square force ... cracks me up every time.

chumbucket
People yelling over each other without listening.
Gmork
The comments here or the video?

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>If you want to judge me based on my words, go for it. I just ask you don't judge me based on secondhand sources here. If you want, read the links they post that showcase the conversations they point to or go through my history. Then believe what you want.

Okay, I'll meet you halfway. I'm going to continue to believe what I want.

ROUS, you need to be responsible for getting your point across. Making other people responsible for getting the point just isn't going to work. Some people are going to refuse to get the point, and can be dismissed, but I'm actually a little dense, and easily triggered. So I don't pay much attention to things that piss me off anymore, like this video. Maybe I'm a special snowflake, but I think I'm just an ordinary snowflake, although I may not have as much time to waste as y'all.


You know, when I said

>>There's a reason why I'd rather not admit that the left want to take away our freedom because they're all a bunch of hypersensitive special snowflakes:

>>ITS HORSESHIT!

It was in response to this:

>>No, I'm not. I'm just submitting things which are uncomfortable for you to admit are a fucking problem and you'd rather not admit they are problems.

Which wasn't really about you

And it was also a response to the fucking video. It wasn't a response to you as a person, or every opinion you've ever had. I'm not good at keeping track of that. I have a vague idea that you and I share some musical tastes, or something.

But these submissions aren't very good. They get voted up, so it's not entirely your fault. Maybe you should just not care about pissing people off. That'll work, too.

I know some people are attacking you personally, and I don't agree with that.
John Holmes Motherfucker
>>Maybe I'm a special snowflake, but I think I'm just an ordinary snowflake, although I may not have as much time to waste as y'all.

I'm already starting to melt a little.

Rodents of Unusual Size
I just hope I can find some really good SJW video in time for Halloween so I can be labeled as the Antichrist.

Maybe if you become water and someone throws you at me, I'll melt.

bawbag
"I just hope I can find some really good SJW video in time for..."

Or you could -not- do that and maybe in the fullness of time, when your pubes grow in you'll realise the error of being such an edgy one-trick manchild and figure out how it was all just a reaction to your parents' lack of validation that led to you seeking negative attention at every turn.

Maybe.

Rodents of Unusual Size
You're so like, mature and stuff. I wish I could be as cool as you, bro!

"Or you could -not- do that and maybe in the fullness of time, when your pubes grow in you'll realise the error of being such an edgy one-trick manchild and figure out how it was all just a reaction to your parents' lack of validation that led to you seeking negative attention at every turn.

Maybe."

YOU ARE EVERY TEENAGER ON YOUTUBE MAN ZING! GOTCHA! FUCK I'M GOOD AT THIS SJW SHIT! MAN I REALLY HAVE ROUS ON THE RUN NOW! MAN I JUST NEED TO JERK ONE OFF AND THEN I'M GONNA CALL HIM A HOMOPHOBE NEXT. FUCK YEAH I'M THE MAN!

bawbag
Thank you for sharing your delicate flower emotions RoUS.

John Holmes Motherfucker
>>>YOU ARE EVERY TEENAGER ON YOUTUBE MAN ZING! GOTCHA! FUCK I'M GOOD AT THIS SJW SHIT! MAN I REALLY HAVE ROUS ON THE RUN NOW! MAN I JUST NEED TO JERK ONE OFF AND THEN I'M GONNA CALL HIM A HOMOPHOBE NEXT. FUCK YEAH I'M THE MAN!

That would have been more subtle without the allcaps.

MacGyver Style Bomb
No
SolRo
ROUS is a fucking idiot

bongoprophet
No, I like you but you're behaving like a dick. An idiotic dick.

M-DEEM
Gross. My heart to the kids just trying to get through it to graduation
Two Jar Slave
Everyone in this video annoyed me, and if someone says they don't want to be called a nazi I'm willing to respect that.

Stars withheld out of general confusion.
Rodents of Unusual Size
So far the tally is:

one star - 9 people
five stars - 9 people
two stars - 1
three stars - 1

I love the fact that POETV is so divided over this video. This whole site has lost its sense of humor. Jesus Christ.
Two Jar Slave
At last, I see my contribution to this complex debate.

bawbag
"My being shitty was just a joke guys"

And there it is, the ultimate puss out. I called it.

Rodents of Unusual Size
Are...you capable of any kind of reading comprehension? It's like you interpret everything I say with a conversation you are having with yourself in your own head.

Rodents of Unusual Size
By lost its sense of humor I wasn't inferring that I was kidding about my stances on anything, you chunderhead. I was talking about not rating the video for being hilarious.

Dude, you are way too fucking taken with yourself.

chumbucket
Sorry ROUS, it just wasn't that funny. Mostly annoying.

teethsalad
boring
Bus_Aint_Comin
when did this site become a haven for dickheads?
GravidWithHate
Anyone with more than one post on this thread needs a lifetime ban.
John Holmes Motherfucker
This isn't a conflict between the right and the left. It's more like a conflict between trolls and the easily trolled. Kids, when Oscar Vile brings his Dangerous Faggot tour to your school, don't protest him, schedule a movie for the same night and forget and raise money for Hillary Clinton, or Without the attention, he'll dry up and blow away. Why do you need me to tell you this?
John Holmes Motherfucker
Should have finished editing that before posting.

Binro the Heretic
Bullies always whine and moan when their victims seek help from others. That's the main thing that's going on in American culture right now.

For decades, the group in power were able to say and do anything they want to demean and marginalize other groups who could only sit there and take it. Now our society is starting to protect those groups from harassment. Those who used to get away with the harassment are freaking out because nobody likes losing power.

Now, freedom of speech should always be protected and people should always be allowed to express opinions. "I prefer chocolate to vanilla" is an opinion. "I thought that movie was stupid." is an opinion. "This band is awesome." is an opinion. "Non-Whites are inferior to Whites." is NOT an opinion. "Women shouldn't be allowed to hold certain jobs." is NOT an opinion. "Homosexuals are disgusting perverts." is NOT an opinion.

What we're seeing on campus and, indeed, throughout American society is the clash of those who think their hateful bullshit are opinions they have a right to express and those who know the hateful bullshit is designed to disempower and humiliate the targets of it.

The tantrums we see are similar to those thrown by schoolyard bullies when their victim runs to the teacher who protects the victim and admonishes the bullies. The bullies were certainly in the wrong, but they still miss the perceived power they had over the victim. As a result, they sulk and moan about how their victim was wrong to turn to someone else for help and how THEY are the real victims.

bawbag
Word.

15th
>>"Non-Whites are inferior to Whites." is NOT an opinion. "Women shouldn't be allowed to hold certain jobs." is NOT an opinion. "Homosexuals are disgusting perverts." is NOT an opinion.

No, those are certainly opinions. People do have a right to express them, to an extent. It doesn't matter that you or I or the majority of people don't like them. That's how a free society operates.

That guy
You think people don't have the right to express thoughts, Binro, and you're setting the bar for inexpressible thoughts THAT low?

Go fuck yourself. You would be a tyrant of the highest order if you got your way.

bawbag
The opinions paragraph might need some work/clarifying but the rest of it is fair imho.

M-DEEM
Haha opinions don't magically turn into something else because they're mean or offend you. Sorry pal, you don't get to change the meaning of words to suit your dumb agenda

Binro the Heretic
No, those things are definitely not opinions, they are hateful bullshit. Something like that doesn't magically become an opinion just because you tack the words "I think" or "I believe."

Things that are said solely to diminish someone's status as a human being are no opinions. And yes, I would say the same about sweeping generalizations about any group, including straight White Christian men. If someone were to say, for example, no White men can be trusted with authority because they would abuse it to oppress women and non-Whites, I would be right in there calling that a bunch of hateful bullshit, particularly if they were using it to forbid a White man a position for which he was chosen and rightfully appointed. It's using the bad examples of other members of the group to oppress an individual.

Hate is not an opinion.

Hooker
I would also like to strongly object to Binro's idea that some ideas are dangerous and so they shouldn't be allowed to exist. FUUUUUUUUUUUCK that.

Binro the Heretic
People have stamped out dangerous hurtful ideas throughout history for the betterment of mankind.

Dangerous thoughts were used to justify slavery. They were thoughts not backed up by actual facts. Thoughts like "Black people are less evolved than White people." or "Black people actually enjoy serving others." or "Black people are mentally incapable of caring for themselves and need masters to look after them." And you can find exactly identical dangerous thoughts used to subjugate women.

If you want to sit around thinking shit like that, knock yourself out. My goal is not to control your mind. I find that idea horrifying.

I will not, however, sit idly by if you start spewing this shit out loud or in print. When you do that, you're not expressing an opinion or exercising your right to free speech, you are trying to rob someone else of their liberty and fuck you for that.

15th
Yeah, those are still opinions. Unless our hypothetical honky is getting evicted, fired ect. for being white, everything you 'hypothetically' said is rightfully protected by our Constitution.

I had a great 5th grade teacher that explained to us how noble the Jewish lawyer was that defended Nazis protestors in Skokie.

I don't feel like hammering that out into a fully formed argument, but you get the gist.

15th
"I will not, however, sit idly by if you start spewing this shit out loud or in print. "

Like the gun nut just itching to pull the trigger. No one has said anything remotely disparaging about any race/ethnicity/gender in this entire thread. I can't speak about the thought-crimes though, could be hundreds.

M-DEEM
"People have stamped out dangerous hurtful ideas throughout history for the betterment of mankind.

Dangerous thoughts were used to justify slavery."

There is still plenty of slavery.

Which ideas have been "stamped out"? How would you know?

Hooker
Binro, this is insane. I'm willing to grant that you're trying to express a metaphor or do a thing or whatever with this "some ideas aren't opinions," but I can't for the life of me understand what you're trying to say if that's the case. If that's NOT the case and you really are trying to that they're opinions, which is profoundly idiotic, then you don't have a common ground with which to have a discussion with anyone and you've successfully made an opponent of anyone reasonable. An opinion is not a virtue. If anything, having fewer of them is admirable. Racism, bigotry, hate, or whatever else doesn't gain any respect or prestige by the fact of them being opinions.

You seem to be agreeing that meeting bad ideas in open discussion is the path forward, which isn't what your first post indicated. If so, I think we agree on pragmatic issues. But this stuff about what is and is not opinions, if it's not some rhetorical device I don't understand and you're actually being literal, is ludicrous crazy talk and you should really take a moment to collect your thoughts here.

Binro the Heretic
"I hate all Black people." is indeed an opinion. It's a stupid and hateful opinion, but it is an opinion. People have a right to hold that opinion and even express it. I'm not talking about stamping out opinions, even stupid opinions.

"I hate all black people because they're lazy violent rapist thieves." is NOT AN OPINION. When you say "I hate Black people." the only one you hurt is yourself because it makes you look hateful and shitty. When you disparage all Black people because of the bad actions of a few, it hurts many other innocent people.

People on campuses and workplaces aren't upset because someone is expressing an opinion. They're upset because they're being harassed and demeaned. On college campuses every day, non-White students are told they don't really belong there. They're told they robbed a deserving White person of an education. They're told they didn't have what it takes to be there. They're told the only reason they are there is because the school is being forced to take them. And sometimes this comes not just from their fellow students, but from members of the faculty. Could you imagine being in that situation yourself? You worked hard and struggled against disadvantages the other students never had to face themselves and still made it there only to be told you don't deserve it.

And women who achieve any measure of success are subjected to harassment and insults. Their physical appearance is mocked. They're called sexually undesirable. Notice that's how Trump and other such assholes defend themselves against allegations of sexual assault? "Why would I try to fuck her? She's too ugly." A woman could talk about how she figured out the secret to cold fusion and you could bet some asshole would say, "Cool story, babe. Now go make me a sammitch." and think it's a laugh riot and you can bet a lot of other assholes would laugh along with the "joke."

Voltaire never said "I disapprove of what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it." That was someone else trying to sum up Voltaire's general attitude. And he wasn't referring to Voltaire's attitude towards shitty hateful statements. He was referring to Voltaire's attitude towards opinions about his books.

Throughout history, when people have fought for freedom of speech, they have fought for the right of the powerless to stand up to those in power. Do you really think fighting for the right of shitty people to say shitty things against people who have less power than them is the same thing?

Hooker
Christ, Binro. You are getting really lost. "I hate all black people" is a statement of a person's prejudices. The second is the same statement with a supporting opinion tacked on. Neither are opinions in their own right.

Anyway, yes, they are the same thing. Freedom of speech is an ideal people should hold regardless of how unpalatable the things they might hear are. It's not a one-way street, and as you correctly point out, it does come at a cost. That's always been known about it.

I honestly don't know what you're arguing for here. You agreed in your second post that hate speech has to be met head-on with dialogue. I agree with that. However, your first and this one seems to be saying speech has consequences that we don't want, which implies you support preventing people from being able to engage in that type of speech. I consider that scarily fascist.

urbanelf
Dang... PoETV got triggered!
Oscar Wildcat
TriggleyPoeTV

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