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Comment count is 37
Hazelnut - 2020-02-08

I know it's a long video of a dry speaker, but I'd really beg everyone to watch it though. Lately I'm convinced that dehumanization is the root of all modern evil.

First and worst is the effect on the victimized groups, so horrible I don't have the heart to describe it. The slide at 5:48 says it all.

Almost as corrosive is how it enables authoritarian and corrupt regimes. Mitch McConnell was in a position to shield Trump from justice because in 2018 they preserved their Senate majority by demonizing 'invading caravans' of refugees. When Erdogan's grip on Turkey was slipping, all he had to do was stir up trouble with the Kurds and steer the conversation away from kleptocracy.

And there's another injury: the damage to the mind of the prejudiced. We might think it's safe to hate on, say, Israelis (or Palestinians, or immigrants, or the other party) if we don't know any personally and don't have the power to affect them. And yeah, in that case we probably won't harm them directly. But we harm ourselves when we practice corrosive habits of mind, which bleed into our other thoughts and actions.


Anaxagoras - 2020-02-08

This has been part of the "standard" canon of Buddhist thinking for a couple thousand years.

I don't want to shit on this speaker; he's quite good, on point, and correct. But if you'd like a deeper dive, I'd recommend reading and/or listening to Dr. Timothy Snyder's "The Black Earth" for more information on the holocaust. And I'd recommend reading books by Buddhist writers (Zen writers generally seem to be the best... they usually avoid the hippy dippy "pop-culture" version of Buddhism which is utter crap.) for more information about the corrosive effect of thinking ill of others.


jfcaron_ca - 2020-02-08

For a radically different way of interpreting Zen buddhism, I highly recommend the book "Zen and War". It doesn't contradict what you said, but it shows how even something as seemingly-wholesome as Zen buddhism can be co-opted for evil.


Binro the Heretic - 2020-02-08

So, I'm guessing Hazelnut posted this to scold us about hating on the rich. I feel it incumbent upon me to point out the rich aren't an ethnic group.

And if the rich want us to feel less alienated and less likely to dehumanize them, a good start might be to stop segregating themselves into places where they keep everything nice & clean while drowning the rest of us in pollution & decay.


Meerkat - 2020-02-08

Some people are rich through their own hard work. Some people are rich through fucking over other people.

I think it is OK to despise the latter. They are bandits.

But when the revolution comes the "good" rich will be up against the wall along with the "bad" rich.


Hazelnut - 2020-02-08

You guess wrong Binro, and I’m sorry for you ig that’s all you’re capable of seeing.


SolRo - 2020-02-08

Earned or not, most rich people dehumanize the not-rich.

Poors are lazy and don’t work hard enough, they’d be just as rich as me if they worked harder

Poors had the same exact educational opportunities as the rich but were too lazy to get a good education.

If a Poor has an Xbox then they aren’t poor.

The Only Real Poor is either homeless or works 3 jobs and never has time for entertainment nor eats any decent food.


Hazelnut - 2020-02-08

Watch. The. Video.


SolRo - 2020-02-08

Ok Homer


Hazelnut - 2020-02-09

Still with the anger, the insults, and the avoidance. Why? Because you know in your heart that hatred, stereotype, prejudice, and de-individuation are evil and corrosive, but you've never in your life learned how to say "okay, I see what you mean." Instead the only response you know is to double down and dodge.

That's a pity. If you learn to _listen_ instead of insult you'll take a step into a much bigger world.

I understand it takes time. I think the realization is starting to eat at you, the same way a touch of guilt caused Brawndo to disappear again. We are all human, which means we're much more complex and three-dimensional than these one-sided caricatures you present.


SolRo - 2020-02-09

Ok Homer


Binro the Heretic - 2020-02-09

The problem, Hazel, is you're suggesting lumping all the nazis together and demanding they answer for what they did to the Jews is as bad as what the nazis did to the Jews.

You're all, like, "Some of them were really nice. They weren't like Hitler at all."

These are people who have the power to make us not hate them, but keeping huge piles of money while people starve around them is more important to them than not being hated.


Scrimmjob - 2020-02-09

The problem hazelnut is solro is a gay bitch.


Hazelnut - 2020-02-09

Actually, Binro, let's finish that thought. Because I do claim that most of the Nazis _were_ human. It's a horrible, humiliating thing to face, but the truth the bulk of people in those fascist rallies, in the German army, even in the Nazi party, were ordinary schlubs like you and me.

If you'd watched the video you'd see how ordinary people can be driven to such extremes of hate.

Now, it's understandable that you'd want to pretend the opposite -- imagining that Nazis somehow belonged to a different species. But hiding from the facts only avoids the ugly necessary questions, like could a wave of fascist populism happen again and how do we prevent it?

Of course, observing that the Nazis were human doesn't make it any less necessary to defeat them. More so, if anything. And similarly, it's very necessary to create a fairer economic system. I promise you're not going to succeed at it by out-fascisting the fascists.


Hazelnut - 2020-02-09

Re-reading the above, I notice a second thing. You said, "The problem, Hazel, is you're suggesting lumping all the nazis together and demanding they answer for what they did to the Jews is as bad as what the nazis did to the Jews"

Translating that back to rich people, you seem to think I'm saying "lumping all the rich together and demanding they answer for their effect on the poor is as bad as systematic inequality."

I promise that I am *NOT* saying that.

In fact, your dehumanizing of the rich probably doesn't hurt the rich at all. it hurts you as a person, and it can bleed into other prejudices. Ironically, here in the UK "hating the rich" has depressingly morphed into anti-Semitism among some of the Labour party. And in Hungary they use hating "bankers" as a euphemism for Jews. Once you start hating, it's very hard to seal it off to only "acceptable targets".


SolRo - 2020-02-09

“ here in the UK "hating the rich" has depressingly morphed into anti-Semitism among some of the Labour party”

Thanks for definitively proving how much of a complete and utter fucking gullible idiot you are.


Nominal - 2020-02-10

Hating the rich is antisemitic!

Ha ha, holy shit. You're on a fucking roll!


Nominal - 2020-02-10

"This is a dangerous slippery slope to paint all billionaire capitalists as harmful! It could lead to increased 1950s upper tax bracket rates, which is exactly what the nazis did to usher Stalin into power!"

When I made that comment a few days ago, I was trying for the most ridiculous parody defense I could think of. You just literally went there.


Hazelnut - 2020-02-10

Here we see SolRo and Nominal are also in denial of anti-Semitism.

What a surprise.


SolRo - 2020-02-10

ok homer


Hazelnut - 2020-02-10

Dodging


SolRo - 2020-02-10

ok homer


Hazelnut - 2020-02-10

Ok Brawndo


Simillion - 2020-02-08

To better understand dehumanization, he explains the intellectual translation of dehumanization into identity, the sense of self vs other, a sense of whether something is justifiable or not (justness), and the sense of constraint on your own actions (such as imposed by law, society), and the cusp of the "cliff" towards de-identifying others as being "other" represents how easy it is to fall rapidly down towards dehumanizing others WHEN structural constraint is eroded.

It is absolutely sensible that humans have these potentials due to the evolutionary advantage of having an "off" switch about the value of another person's life to fight them and survive if attacked, etc.

So yes, overall, very good, and I am very happy he highly credits a very motivated graduate student he had for pressing him to formulating a theory that can be explained in a 3 dimensional diagram and understood by people.

Social constraints are what make us "human," to each other, as they prevent an evolved mechanism to attack other humans, because one of the most common causes of death was murder for many eons, humans had to evolve mechanisms to not be murdered. It changed us. The more society binds our sense of action and agency, the more likely we are to see all other humans as belonging with us.

-----

this doesn't have to equate to societal constraint, but it may also be self-imposed constraint, I think. I used to have a shorter fuse and it was a problem I really wanted to change. I kind of happened on a form of a solution. I deal with a lot of stress, and it affected my ability to stay kind to others. In my job if I can't be kind and earnestly try to help my clients then I'll be in trouble at the worst and I won't do a very good job also.


For other reasons (my partner), I began doing more activities that became a kind of constraint on my life. I took up weekly (twice per week now) classes and physical exercise. The way the classes work is, you buy them in packs and if you don't use it by a certain date it expires. 10 classes in 2 months. It forces you to go often, in exchange for a better price.. the side effect was that I had a little extra push to go and do something good for myself.

As I did this more, I became more willing to sign up for other things. I became more active in my academic community for a while, this effect was most pronounced a few years ago and it's fading for good reasons, but I was really inspired.

I discovered that the more constraints I imposed on myself in my own life, the more empathic I became, naturally. I just had more capacity to be happy about seeing a new face, to be happy to include someone in my sphere of care and then be helpful to them to my utmost. I would do extra hours at work with a smile. With the empathy came other changes, like a revisiting of my love for music. Occasionally, I still benefit from a new discovery and a new way to enjoy life and it's because I have a routine I can't break. Every single day, I have something I have to do. No more days with no responsibility.

I used to have trouble being constantly active on a weekend but now I can do it without trying, and the result is to have even MORE energy the next day.

So...self constraint is an amazing psychological tool. Societal constraint can be helpful also (like the decision to have a time limit on my classes wasn't mine, it was the teacher's), and these things are not all or nothing singular events. They add up over time and they build towards an overall effect on how your mind works.


jangbones - 2020-02-08

Dehumanization is a second order problem. Healthcare, economy, and imperialism are first order problems. Overt concern about dehumanization is at best wildly naive or at worst cynical, sycophantic, and a destructive sleight of hand designed to deflect.

The policies (both overt and covert) of the elites are far, far more dehumanizing than anything in discourse.

I do not want to personally injure any billionaires or elites. I want to change the system that gives them parody levels of power of the lives of innocents. Of course the elites believe that this would significantly injure them but that is yet another symptom of the sickness.

There are lots of jokes and shit about guillotines but the vast, vast majority of serious people in the movement are not out for revenge or want violence.

I wish I could say the same about the opponents. Anyone even slightly connected to current events is painfully aware of the silent class war that was declared on the poor and the marginal decades ago, and how it has accelerated. People are dying today because of healthcare. Journalists are murdered. The pile of bodies of innocent Yemeni and Iraqis is enormous.

But we should be nicer to people? Seriously, get the fuck out of here, that is delusional lunacy. Fuck off.


Hazelnut - 2020-02-08

Nobody’s talking about billionaires onthis page but you. I submitted this video with Marlon Brawndo’s disgusting “all Muslims are hateful and intolerant” rant in mind.

Still, it says a lot that you saw yourself in that mirror. There’s a big difference between wanting to change the system (through fairer taxes etc) so that there are no billionaires, versus claiming everyone over a certain net worth is a psychopath (I don’t know if you ARE claiming that, but Binro & SolRo are).

And I do believe hatred is a first order effect. The Nazis didn’t hate due to insufficient health care, not primarily. The hated because they were taught to hate. They were under economic strain, but plenty of countries went through worse strain without going Nazi.


Nominal - 2020-02-08

Not all countries going through an economic crises and austerity strain turn into Nazis, therefore the economy was not a cause. Countries never slide into radicalism as a result of crushing economic inequity, but because they sat down to hateful TED Talks between zipping to the next golf game in their Rolls-Royces.

Jesus, the lengths you go through to deflect from the problems brought about by the ultra wealthy's 80+ year effort to undo the New Deal. Are we talking to the Heritage Foundation here? ALEC?


Nominal - 2020-02-08

Sorry, I meant:

Warren Buffett ($89B) donated more that $46B of his net worth. What percentage of his net worth have you donated?


Hazelnut - 2020-02-08

Aaaand that’s the intellectual level of Nominal.


Nominal - 2020-02-08

"People are dying today because of healthcare. Journalists are murdered. The pile of bodies of innocent Yemeni and Iraqis is enormous. "

Jang, the REAL problem is people unfairly declaring that there aren't any nice billionaires!


"Oh gosh. I'm sorry. I...never...knew..." **croak**

-destitute cancer patient


Hazelnut - 2020-02-08

It’s easy to “win” an argument by attacking opinions the other person never expressed and doesn’t hold.

Easy, but pointless.


Nominal - 2020-02-10

It's easy to win an argument against YOU.


Hazelnut - 2020-02-10

Zing!


Braze - 2020-02-08

I think that his 'identity' axis is actually two variables that he's conflated, one being group inclusiveness and the other being hostility. He does that thing speakers can do in acknowledging this without actually addressing it. I don't think the relationship is simple enough to just project it onto a line like this without losing significant information; I wish they'd included the discussion because someone probably asked about this. I'm not sure how useful this model is but I suppose it's an ok way to frame thinking on the issue in really general terms, even if it does nothing to inform people about the actual dynamics of any given conflict.


Hazelnut - 2020-02-08

You know I actually had a similar feeling, though I didn’t articulate it so well. Speaker could have addressed this better.


Chicken the Did - 2020-02-08

Hits close to home because this relates to how my mother was the victim of a horrific crime perpetrated by what amounted to 'regular folks'. :(


Bort - 2020-02-08

Fails to treat people as beings with agency, and instead holds that they are simple organisms fully under the thrall of outside forces. Doesn't take into account that people can be predisposed to bigotry without outside forces torturing them into it. Rich people can be bigots too, and there is nothing that requires a person in tough financial times to find a minority group to scapegoat.

Also overestimates the role of fear, and doesn't adequately take into account the delight that comes with hatred. He mentions in passing that the tribes who could respond swiftly to an unexpected invasion stood the best chance of weathering them, but it doesn't explain the invaders, or the reality we've all experienced that hatred comes with a certain amount of pleasure.

Basically he seems to be holding that people wouldn't be assholes if circumstances didn't force them into it, and I say all of history says otherwise.

I have a different suggestion: people are generally only as mature as circumstances require them to be, and many of them get quite far in life with the emotional maturity of a child. Resentment, and then projecting so as to justify one's own bad behavior, are much bigger issues than genuine fear. A person doesn't have to fear economic ruin to resent that the other person owns a bigger TV, or feel that the other person doesn't deserve it.

I present The Invisible Fence Model Of Human Behavior: just as the dog will go anywhere he doesn't get zapped, so many people will feel justified in thoughts and actions that don't get them zapped with social, legal, financial, or professional penalties. So many people will be as bigoted as is acceptable simply because they can, but also behave with as good of manners as are expected of them. That's if a person opts not to do the hard work of developing their own set of principles and trying to live according to them; for most people it's much easier to go by the standards set by the group, or, if need be, find groups that accept their underdeveloped broken selves without inflicting social penalties.

No rating because, while I would one-star his model, I have to at least five-star his willingness to look into the topic.


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