yes incoming Democratic administrations are famous for investigating and prosecuting the crimes of the administration before them

He's probably not going to jail. I'm not sure that that would even be in the country's interest, though I suppose state-level prosecutors will make their own decisions. But the stuff that they NYT put out yesterday suggests that he's even more broke than I thought he was.

He’s some combination of broke and committing tax fraud.

"I'm not looking to punish anyone, but it's about time the super-wealthy and corporate America start paying their fair share."

- Joe Biden, yesterday

won't somebody please think of the billionaires?!

it's legitimately frightening how you typed that out as if corporations and the super wealthy aren't driving the wealth inequality in this country to dizzying new heights.

This applies to all Seth Meyers videos. At least SolRo is finally willing to admit it.

a balkanized united states with probably one or more radically religious fundamentalist/conspiraQ'd states armed with nuclear weapons will most likely end in a far more chaotic and deadly world than the alternative. breaking up the union will in no way prevent the shittiest elements of our society from running roughshod over the globe

don't throw the baby out with the bathwater kids

Yeah, but autistic video game-playing Irish fuckerheads will get to feel all smug about it, you see.

LOL @ MH6GC

well, i guess it'll all be worth it then

@Teethsalad..

You dont think the collapse of the US would reduce its global influence at all? Imo it would be disruptive, it would have to reduce it somewhat.

The collapse of the USSR definitely reduced the amount of international intervention they were up to.

One would imagine the collapse of the US would reduce the power behind the IMF and World Bank, and also take away a one of the biggest homes for monster rogue corporations.

One example, right now corps use the leverage of the US' trade power to fuck up the rest of the world via international trade agreements. If theres no US, and instead a bunch of smaller mad max style fiefdoms I cant really see that happening anymore. That big monolithic power would be gone.

never said it wouldn't reduce influence...but if you think that vacuum is going to remain unoccupied just because america as it exists disappears, you're mistaken. The IMF and World Bank aren't going to cease to exist just because America goes away - you think those multinational corporations who pushed for the trade agreements in the first place are contingent on the continued existence of the United States? You get rid of the US and they'll both be stuffed with all sorts of fine gentlemen from zhongnanhai and the EU who have zero problem playing ball. throwing temper tantrums and wishing for civil war because we expected the world to stay some 1950's protectionist daydream forever isn't gonna get us where we wanna go

POE's weird tradition of all the worst people naming themselves Purple.

Luckily we're not falling exclusively from within, but the disinformation war that we're losing is helping. Even if the US does collapse, (a) the same disinformation will continue to destabilize other countries because it's the new frontier and so politically expedient, so everyone will get enjoy that eventually, and (b) other global powers are ready to fill in the imperialist oppression vacuum with their own special touch, which is something we'll all be able to enjoy.

Not gonna happen. Trump is the kind of guy who pulls all the fire alarms on the way out; that's why normally you have security show up at a firee's desk with a cardboard box and a board with nails in it.

You cry conspiracy theory at all the discussions of the very real coup going on, yet think Republicans are going to finally wake up and drop Trump?

Why would they dump Trump? They should keep him around for as long as possible for maximum eventual scapegoat-worship. There seem to be a lot of power cowering away from the proverbial fan.

They have no reason to dump him and lots of reasons to keep him. He is a yuuuuge stroooonng powerrrful distraction.

He keeps the media chasing after racist laser pointers while the folks in the back put together shit sandwiches.

Then the press secretary brings out a tray and they all dig in and after a few bites they all look at each other like "whaaaaaaa?" until Trump starts cavorting around making chimp noises and then another tray comes out and they're all fucking shocked it's more shit sandwiches.

You guys think the Republicans can dump Trump? He's the most popular and trusted member of their party. He has all the power. If any Republican moves against him they'll lose their next election be it a primary or a general. Maybe, MAYBE, Fox News could deflate the cult a bit, but they'd have to get Hannity and Carlson on board or sideline them. How could they do that without alienating their viewers?

The conservative movement spent 40 years building a fascism mecha and Trump wandered into the cockpit and locked the door.

>>>You cry conspiracy theory at all the discussions of the very real coup going on, yet think Republicans are going to finally wake up and drop Trump?

I have a whole lot of problems with this.

1. The only recent time I can recall using the words "conspiracy theory", after RBG's death, I immediately added that conspiracy theories may be valid, before anyone could even question me. Conspiracies exist, so theorizing about them is a necessary evil.

2. I object to the words "all the discussions". I dont think thats true.

3. I didnt say i thought Republicans are going to finally wake up and drop Trump, I said they might.

4. And yes, they certainly might. This isn't impeachmemt, with Senate Republicans deciding whether to remove Trump from office. The scenario is that Trump has lost the election, and they have to decide whether to join his coup. His case is that absentee balloting, an established practice, is invalid, which is not going to play as easily at the Supreme court as it does at a maga rally, no matter who's on the court. Theyre on for life, he's lost.

The conventional wisdom isn't always right. It wasnt right in 2016. But it usually is right, and if the republicans take a spanking in 2020, Trump will be the reason. No doubt the hardcore MAGAGAs will back Trump, but shooting up a few Pizza parlors will not help his case.

>> His case is that absentee balloting, an established practice, is invalid, which is not going to play as easily at the Supreme court as it does at a maga rally, no matter who's on the court.

It's nice to see that someone hasn't lost all their faith in the USSC, however misguided that faith may be. Let's put Berman on the court and see how long that faith lasts.

>>>They have no reason to dump him and lots of reasons to keep him. He is a yuuuuge stroooonng powerrrful distraction.
He keeps the media chasing after racist laser pointers while the folks in the back put together shit sandwiches.
0Then the press secretary brings out a tray and they all dig in and after a few bites they all look at each other like "whaaaaaaa?, an illegal attempt to overthrow the US Constitution." until Trump starts cavorting around making chimp noises and then another tray comes out and they're all fucking shocked it's more shit sandwiches.

We're talking about a coup.

Nobody's going to be looking at the racist laser pointers. Nobody's going to be looking at the shit sandwiches. Everybody is going to be looking at the illegal attempt to overthrow the US Constitution.

>>> yet think Republicans are going to finally wake up and drop Trump?

If he loses the election, they won't be the ones dropping him.

>>>He's the most popular and trusted member of their party.

He's wildly, historically unpopular, and about two thirds of Americans consider him to be a liar.

>>>>It's nice to see that someone hasn't lost all their faith in the USSC, however misguided that faith may be. Let's put Berman on the court and see how long that faith lasts.

There's going to have to be a case. In Bush v. Gore, there was a case. It was a really weird circumstance.

Anyway, I'm not making any definite statements about the future. I've only made one point, and it happens to be true. The Republicans got what they most wanted out of Trump, and by all accounts, most of the Republicans who know him loathe him. Because he's loathesome. They would privately love to drop him, without being responsible to their Trump-loving voters.

I think that if Trump tries to dispute a clear loss, and he probably would, that could make his WORST PRESIDENT EVER status official. I'm not certain it would go down that way, but I would love it if it did. Trump's folk hero status comes largely from his 2016 upset. His fans think he can't lose. Losing could break that myth, and being seen as a sore loser could crush it.

He'd lose on total votes cast, surely, but his rabid fans won't consider it a loss if he whines & cries about it and the SC says it's cool to throw out mailed-in ballots or whatever. To his rabid supporters, "winning the wrong way" is a meaningless distinction: he literally can't lose, if he claims to have won. SC says, "that's cool, stick around," Dems lose their shit, many agencies make rational noises, but in the end there's a path for the grand cheeto to stay in office during the hubbub, so he does, exacting vengeance and burning bridges on Nov 4.

I really don't think so. Trump's supporters are a minority, his RABID supporters are a minority within a minority. Theyre completely visible in the media and on the net, but they don't have a lot of political power. Not having a lot of political, power is . They have guns. They could make a lot of trouble. It'll be ugly, for sure.

Now, I dont blame you for not trusting the Senate Republicans, but when Trump talks about delaying the election, or refuses to commit to a peaceful transition, they don't support him. Unanimously, the senate passed a resolution committing to a peaceful transition. Some of them might go back on it, but all of them? It could happen, but you seem to think its a foregone conclusion, AND ITS NOT.

The Supreme Court has a conservative majority, but they really haven't let Trump break the law. He's lost a lot of cases, and I dont think they've been that close.

they don't have to do anything so dramatic as voting him high chancellor of the new galactic empire.

just pack the court 6/9 and have the court rule 5/9 that still counting mail-in ballots 1 week after the election is unconstitutional.

to pad it a little install electoral delegates in swing states that will vote for trump even if the state goes to Biden (this happened a couple times in 2016), so that the lection delegate count looks closer than it should be.

That's still way more obvious that what they have to do to win. The electors they install don't have to vote for Trump, just someone other than Biden. Both candidates falling below 370 is still a guaranteed, 100% technically legal win for Trump.

That puts it wide open for electors to play Ashtarsmack and cosplay as independents while still deepthroating Republican goals.

Passing a resolution for a peaceful transition of power = getting to accuse Democrats of being "the violent left" sending forth hordes of anarchist ANTIFA mobs when the protests start after Republicans blatantly steal the election with mail-in ballot counting cut short and state legislation fuckery.

It means absolutely fuck nothing about respecting a Democratic victory.

The SC's recent + projected history certainly protects us from a Bush v. Gore decision on steroids in 2020, eh? Especially with Margaret Atwood's fever-dream of a nominee? The endgame's not THAT far ahead of us, but you are really stubborn about seeing it, my man. We all heard the dog whistle during the 1st debate tonight, no? DING-DONG. "Real" American principles aren't saving the republic today or tomorrow. Power politics have established the conditions for this round of play, and they have chucked all the cards in the hand dealing with playing nice for the cameras. I envy your sense of security, as an escapist.

My sense of security isn't all that enviable. There are all kinds of horrible scenarios I can imagine coming out of this, just not this one.

Let me remind you what Bush V Gore was about. The whole thing came down to a handful of votes in one state, where one candidate's brother was governor, and appointed the official who validated the results. It was shady, but it was arguably legal.

Now, there are kinds of outrageous decisions that this supreme court could make about abortion and Healthcare, but I dont think they're just going to throw out a bunch of votes. You can check me on this, but I believe that Trump's appointees have already voted against him when he's tried to get around the law. The point of the Supreme court is lifetime appointment, insulated from political deals.

Now, if it comes down once again to a handfull of votes in one state, all bets are off.

Five stars for Simon666. Forget the lazy trolls. Vote vote vote!

Counterpoint: it would change absolutely nothing and would inform every future republican president that they can do what Trump did and leave office without consequences.

Counterpoint: he and his whole family should be shoved into a pit and machine gunned.

JHM, I love you, but that may be the most insane hypothetical in the history of hypotheticals. Have you engaged trolling mode?

No, that makes no kind of sense. Trump's not exclusively worried about federal crimes, so a federal pardon doesn't get him off enough hooks. He owes $400-odd million to "unknown parties," and he needs a way to keep them happy; the best method I can think of is to keep destabilizing the country, and he's in the best possible position for that. He's also a malignant narcissist who can't handle the idea of losing, but even that probably takes a back seat to the sheer terror of wait awaits him on the other side of a failed election.

Also, as the guys between us implied, there's no way a Nixonian "the country needs to heal after our brush with authoritarianism" argument can work after this presidency.

Well, I dont think its the most insane hypothetical EVER, however I did momentarily forget that as president, Biden could only pardon federal crimes. I would have corrected myself immediately, but I needed a nap.

>>>there's no way a Nixonian "the country needs to heal after our brush with authoritarianism" argument can work after this presidency.

In the abstract, I think it might.

Okay, Insane hypothetical: Just suppose Biden COULD pardon Trump of all crimes. That would piss off some people off, for sure. Crackersmack would NEVER shut up about it. But after a Biden victory, pardoning Trump would piss off the happiest among us, and placate the most pissed off. I kind of think that would be a good thing.. It would undercut Trump's persecution narrative, and at the same time, it would imply guilt. And wouldn't you really enjoy not having to think about Donald Trump for fifteen minutes? I think this is what could shut him up, if anything could. Trying Trump for all his crimes in the media would be like fifteen OJ trials. We need to know all the truth there is to know, but maybe historians can do a better job than cable news at sorting that out. If we don't end this shitshow somehow, the shitshow will never end.

Donald Trump will never shut up and go away. Not holding him to account will just embolden him and those like him; they would (rightly) just see it as a failure to exercise power and a weakness ready to be exploited.

Waiting to be exploited HOW, exactly? By whom? The NEXT deranged criminal reality show President? Maybe it won't come to that right away.

The counterpoint is that if you don't give them a way out, they're going to dig in, they have nothing to lose.

He has no way out. NY state is going to jail him if the feds don't. His businesses are failing and he's going to end up broke.

Dude, you went from crazy to crazier.

More specifically, no, it would make me a lot happier waking up from anxiety nightmares knowing that the guy who was responsible for a lot of them was presently rotting as the first US president to be prosecuted after his term for motherfucking treasonous acts, because he deserves that, and while I believe that actual justice is beyond the compass of human action (outside of happy accidents), this would be a nice nudge in the right direction, and what are you even getting at all of a sudden?

I'm on the Exy train here.

At this point, what the fuck is crazy? Here are my priorities.

1. Trump is out, without bloodshed
2. Trump is out,
3. Trump is punished.

I don't think these priorities are crazy. I have no control over any of this, but I can discuss anything, and my motives are at least as thoughtful as "I would be a lot happier".