Exactly. I went to a "goth party"my freshman year of college and asked a philosophy professor of mine who was in attendance wearing all purple and black vinyl how you "goth dance". He proceeded to move his arms in a floppy fishlike fashion and sway slightly. That was all the tutelage I needed.

white people tag STAT!!

also holy shit is that kid in front really wearing a bane facemask?

Bizarre facemasks are a traditional cultural garment for the Goth peoples, found with greatest frequency amongst the Cyber, Industrial, and Candy tribes. The wearing of masks (predominantly of the gas and surgical varieties) is a sacred ritual for the Goths, with deep symbolic meaning, and roots that stretch back tens of years into prehistory.

It might be more accurate to say that Bane is wearing a Goth facemask.

Gothic dance!

http://achewood.com/index.php?date=07062004

I love a lot of goth music (both old and new school) and have been in the subculture for most of my life, but I fucking can't stand the shitheads who want to turn everything into this bland, rote, passionless thing where everyone has to dance the same, dress the same, etc etc. Those people are the worst and really have ruined so many things about Goth culture it's not even funny. So boring.

Goth used to MEAN something, damn it!

Stanley Pain, you took the words right out of my mouth. I have the same history and current viewpoint on "the scene"

I guess it depends on your definition of "goth." For example, I wear almost entirely black (and bright blue shoes and a bright blue bandana) all the time and have a life-long appreciation of Bauhaus and Joy Division. So technically, that's "goth" but I haven't seen anyone dress like this since the late 90s, right down to the chain wallets that people had but didn't need. These guys look more like Slipknot/ICP fans than most goths I know.

Basically the guy on the far right in the back would be me in the summer time, but without the cargo pants. Because like chain wallets, cargo pants?

Of course. Of course infinite zest is a goth.

Somehow I always knew.

Eh.. if goth means that I prefer mostly black and like Bauhaus, then ya I'm goth. I'm also emo because I like Archers of Loaf and Pinback. Gotta go sleep in my coffin now but I have to dig the hole first. I'll record the whole thing and post it on instagram.

afaik goth/emo style is basically punk clothing worn by total pussies.

We're not faggy emo kids! Or vampires! Tch, my gaad.

I say this as an enormous fan of both AOL and Pinback (I've seen them both numerous times)... wouldn't that make you more of an indie rock/college rock kid? I definitely would never in a thousand years consider either one "emo".

Last I heard, the Goths were defeated in Spain by Muslim hordes from Africa.

Depends on your definition of "emo" too. The first emo band was Guy Picciotto's Rites of Spring before Fugazi, at least that's where the name comes from. And back when I was listening to Pinback, they were considered "emo" but this was a few years before the name became associated with shit like My Bloody Chemicals and Panic at the Disco.. basically it was bands like Pinback, Sunny Day Real Estate, Archers, Rainer Maria, all of those were emo back then.

So basically "Goth" started with bands like Bauhaus and The Birthday Party (and of course the Cure) and devolved into Marilyn Manson and.. whatever.. "Emo" started with RoS and.. probably of course the cure and devolved into Thursday, Taking Back Sunday, and other names of days of the week. And punk started with (arguably) Rocket From the Tombs and The Dead Boys, became a thing, and then Cyndi Lauper and The Offspring was punk. A lot of people I knew who identified with the Emo scene dropped it after it became something of a joke, but I never did because I knew enough people who wouldn't drop Punk just because of bullshit like Rancid..

IZ, you are the first person I've ever heard say Manson was goth.

I've noticed that, with most "hipster" scenes, the amount of indie cred one gets is directly proportional to age. 90s punk was not "real" punk in the 90s, but became punk as the millennium drew in. Late 80s goth only started being goth by the late 90s, and I distinctly remember Deadheads decrying Phish as newfangled fake poser jam. So, perhaps this is what has happened to Manson? Now that his work is, oh, 15, 20 years old, perhaps we've become sufficiently removed from the reality of his work that he can be considered culturally legitimate.

"So, perhaps this is what has happened to Manson? Now that his work is, oh, 15, 20 years old, perhaps we've become sufficiently removed from the reality of his work that he can be considered culturally legitimate."

I don't buy it; he didn't add much to the music. The Beach Boys were big before him and after him.

I've never been a goth nor a Manson fan, but he did have several good rock and roll singles back in the day. To me he's kind of a pop-rock icon a la Billy Idol or Alice Cooper, and sure, he looked kind of old, fat and pathetic last time I saw him but he did his thing for several years and he was pretty good at it.

I've always known Manson and Nine Inch Nails to be associated with Goth, or at least with people who identify themselves as such. And our friend on the left and the guy in the middle dress more like Manson than any other popular artist I can think of. And that was kind of my point: just because he wears eyeliner and black doesn't make him any more goth than having a bunch of tattoos makes Blink 182 or the Offspring punk.

And that's not to say I don't like Marilyn Manson. It's not necessarily my cup of tea, but Portrait of an American Family was a really good album. And in fact I think he's cool, between Californication and his sort of self-aware humor, he seems like a fun guy to hang out and do drugs with. With the exception of a few bands, I'm always looking for new stuff. Nothing's worse than going to see some famous 70s punk band at a big venue filled with guys still in black leather pants and covered in tattoos that are older than my dad. I mean, I think it's endearing, but I'd rather support the new stuff. It's like this bumper sticker I saw once: "I may be old, but I saw all the good bands." And they did! I'm jealous as fuck when I hear stories about X or The Germs at the long-forgotten Masque in Los Angeles, or Nick Cave and the Birthday Party at some speakeasy in Australia.

In South Korea I was asked how much clothes cost in the Matrix.

I told him they were apparently cheaper than original jokes.

You know, it almost figures that you'd find a decent representation of goth or punk or alternative lifestyle, scene, fashion, music, subversive (as long as you were home by midnight) subculture, or wtfever it is on this site. For some reason (and this probably is self-important pandering) I find that those who deviate from the 'mainstream' tend to be the more thoughtful and thought-provoking sorts of people. I'd like to say my goth friends were that way; more openly accepting and more friendly when I met them than anyone else I went to school with or partied with but that's probably due to an instinct that drives similar people to band together.

It's weird in my older age. I've blended into society (full time job and a home and all the responsibility that comes with it) and at my age (35) I guess it was about time to when I did. I still know many people from back in the day. Most grew out of it like me. Some didn't. A few didn't get the chance to. Even though the ones who didn't grow out of it aren't doing too bad for themselves. I know of one who is a published author and is the only guy I've ever seen chopping firewood in black leather pants.

But I have to admit, deep down inside beneath the uniform and the jaded years and the fading hairline and the developing crowsfeet, I'm still a little bit of a goth kid at heart and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Hell, I still love the music (at least a little stuff from the whole gamut) and quite frankly, goth chicks can be fucking hot. I've still got a fair amount of wardrobe for it and I do use elements of that time in my life when I get dressed for a celebration or even going out to a bar or whatever.

Manson, though... iconic when I was the right age for that stuff but to be honest, he struck me as a guy who took pages right out of the communal shock rocker playbook, written by people like Alice Cooper, Gene Simmons and Elvis Presley. His music was actually pretty good rock but the entertainment came from the package it was sold in. He had an undeniable influence on the scene but I don't think it was anything deep or particularly profound.

Well anyway, that was a nice little trip down memory lane.

What if your local Friday Night Magic games are in the mall? Not that I'd know that personally for any reason whatsoever.

Cthulhu would be a tough one.

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