But! But...! That bitch! How dare she not realize they were perfect for each other so that they could have babies forever and ever!

I always forget who it was in I think the 1880s who said something to the effect of "I know that God does not exist, what frightens me is that God might not know he does not exist" (i.e. knowing that something is a social construct doesn't mean much if the rest of society believes that it is real).

There are plenty of men and women who absolutely believe in this and behave accordingly, and if you're the sort of sad sack guy who goes for the sort of women who believe in this stuff, it is absolutely real for you. Part of the reason it's such a pernicious belief.

C.F. what Monkey Napoleon said below.

I've put girls in the friend zone. Female friends have openly told me about putting people in the friend zone. Stop pretending a common thing human beings openly talk about in real life is an Internet myth.

I have, too.

But my bigger point was that being a construct doesn't mean that something "isn't real."

A few other things that are constructs (I'm leaving out a few of the biggest ones because some people here get pissy about them and that's not my purpose here):

-government
-money
-language
-mathematics
-all forms of art
-wage labor
-all units of measure
-intelligence

-ownership
-sense of self
-free will

Well, I'd be a fool to bet against the existence of any type of dysfunctional relationship, so sure, there are women who don't mind stringing men along for favors. It happens. But I think it's less common than MRA types would claim.

But the friend zone itself is a myth. It assumes that friendship is just a holding pattern that you're in until the woman clears you for landing, and the problem is when women won't play by the rules and let you land.

A much healthier model: a woman is likely to decide pretty quickly whether she's romantically interested in you, so if she's not interested early on, don't assume she will change her mind if you give her time. If you can't be okay with being "just friends", you'll probably need to walk away altogether, either that or else cultivate new and exciting fetishes to take your mind off her. I hear kids are into watching people eat moist chicken McNuggets out of a toilet at 3am; give that a try.

Eh. We're all going to have different anecdotal experiences. I've definitely seen ladies try deliberately to get men in that zone: take someone mildly interested, lead them on and get them very interested, then put them very firmly in a 'but you can still buy me things, right?' place.

Of course I was living in Manhattan at the time.

The Friend Zone is definitely real, it's on I-35 near Waco, between the Texas Chainsaw Nightmare and Pick-N-Pull Auto Parts.

You're such a dope, Bort. You haven't spoken to a pre-menopausal woman in ages, have you? If you have women under 40 who are actual friends, they will readily tell you all about the ways they manipulate guys, with great glee.

There is no better antidote to this shrill "women do no wrong" feminism then actually talking to women and listening to what they have to say.

I wouldn't say it's a "buy me things" thing. It's done plenty often as a social thing without any gifts exchanging hands.

It's not so much "friend zone" as "one sided friendship", and it definitely exists in female social circles. "Orbiters" is the term commonly used and acknowledged. Hell, Rosalind Wiseman made a highly publicized career off writing about it. It's someone that you're not really interested in for true friendship or romance, but keep around on the fringe because they're occasionally useful for your needs or a fall back option.

But yeah the healthiest response is to recognize it, avoid it, and move on with your life. Making an awful College Humor style video about it is the exact opposite of that.

Grandmaster Funk, I think you might be hanging out with assholes, you should start hanging out with non-assholes.

Grandmaster Funk - please point to where I said women can do no wrong. Can't find it, right? Because I said no such thing.

What I said is that there is no such thing as a friend zone, for the reasons I already laid out and shouldn't have to retype. If you think there is a friend zone and you are stuck in it, you are going about things wrong. Reassess your expectations about the relationship and make appropriate changes.

Cultivate some healthy relationships with women. It can be done.

" If you have women under 40 who are actual friends, they will readily tell you all about the ways they manipulate guys, with great glee."

Wow! I guess I don't have any real female friends, because I've never heard anything of the sort come out of their mouths.

And by this definition, I must not be a real woman either, because it would never occur to me to fuck around with another human being while taking great satisfaction in it.

For whatever it's worth, my circle of friends involves a lot of women under 40, and the biggest thing I notice is the same thing I notice about the men of the same age: the younger they are, the more likely they are to make "bad" relationship decisions. Sometimes it means treating other people poorly, but I have yet to see it rise to the level of deliberate, calculating manipulation.

Nominal mentioned "orbiters", but I wonder how many women want "orbiters" at all? Maybe the problem is more often that "orbiters" won't take a hint and try to find someone who actually fancies them back?

Something that hasn't come up in this thread: I think a lot of men's misconceptions about women and relationships come from movies and TV, which relentlessly push the notion that the sad sack guy will get the woman through persistence. Not that people should learn how relationships work from TV, but when you see it happen over and over, you'd kind of have to assume it's based in how things happen in real life. So if there's a Pam Beasley in your world, just be the Jim Halpert friend and sooner or later she'll realize her Roy is a big asshole and she really wanted you all along. (There is no chance you're actually Toby.)

" the biggest thing I notice is the same thing I notice about the men of the same age: the younger they are, the more likely they are to make "bad" relationship decisions."

Exactly. I've heard friends be all giggles about their men in the beginning, but would always trash the guy after the relationship was over. After about 10 or so times, you would think they'd consider the common denominator.

In their defense, though, sometimes you do end up with what you are used to, or were brought up being taught to model.

You mention men taking cues from movies and TV. That may be true to some degree, but I don't think it would be just limited to guys.

Not getting the sex time you clearly earned.

Same here.