Isn't it weird how the ugliest kind of right-wingers got SOOOO concerned about the health of young people when it comes to hating on the trangendered? They never seem to care when it comes to health care or school lunches.

By staggering coincidence these are the same conservatives who only accept feminism to the extent it lets them hate on Muslims, and who talk about support the 'working class' only in the sense of hating immigrants and the educated.

You are confused. Slow down, suppress your desire to label scientific thinking in terms of political ideology, think.

Yeah, I'm sure the kids "grow out of" being transgender. You know, the ones who don't kill themselves.

Spike, most children w gender dysphoria do not grow up wanting SRS ( and end up plain old gay) Look up Cantor's answer to this. The suicide stats that people talk about have often been misinterpreted here.

Most children with signs of gender dysphoria? Or most children with signs who have also passed the screening to be eligible for hormone blockers? Because if it's not that latter, then that works against your case.

Read Cantor's answer then come back.

Lobotomy was brain surgery,
on a mass scale,
with an icepick.

Walter Freeman was said to do a hundred lobotomies in an afternoon. Again, with an icepick. He probably never met most of the people he operated on, much less obtained informed consent.

The fact that we're having this public discussion is a good indicator that this isn't lobotomy. The transparency is good. On the other the public discussion of private medical matters should be considered bullshit, and it certainly shouldn't drive anybody's treatment.

"On the other the public discussion of private medical matters..."

No. Individuals can not possibly understand safety and efficacy in private. We need information for transparent sources like clinical trials to understand if something is really works and if it is really safe. The questioning of puberty blockers for gender dysphoric youth isn't a matter of an individual private case, it's about trying to understand if there is evidence that these interventions really work and are they safe. Coming to a correct understanding of those issues and disseminating that knowledge is the job of the institution of clinical science.

Information and transparency are essential. I think I indicated that... but that's not what's happening here in the Poe comments, where we watched a 3-5 minute video from the BBC. and you accused a doctor of being duplicitous for leaving things out of his comments, which were no doubt edited by.someone else. Then you evoked lobotomy (kudos for not dragging Joseph Mengeleinto it, and then supported your opinions by citing an unspecified number of unnamed doctors. Brawndo, as usual, ranted like.he'd been eating.paint chips.

I'm not citing any doctors to back up my opinions, because I don't actually know anything about the true effects of puberty blockers, and. my opinions are based entirely on my beliefs and preconceived notions. I'm the only one, right?

Have you looked at what doctors who are advocates of evidence based medicine have been saying about this issue?

Yes. Have you looked at what doctors say, other than to find excerpts of what you think will support your position?

You generalized with "doctors" above. There are indeed a number of doctors out there that have surmised the clinical evidence for the safety and efficacy of puberty blockers is extremely poor in this scenario. I haven't seen any good evidence that convinces me otherwise. Have you?

****Have you looked at what doctors who are advocates of evidence based medicine have been saying about this issue?

As opposed to what? Doctors who are advocates of black magic?

****There are indeed a number of doctors out there that have surmised the clinical evidence for the safety and efficacy of puberty blockers is extremely poor in this scenario. I haven't seen any good evidence that convinces me otherwise. Have you?

Really! A "NUMBER" of doctors? If I guess the number of doctors, will you tell me? Is it an odd number or an even number?

Oh no, some people think we shouldn't mutilate children to feed your fantasy that all kids who play make believe need to be castrated.

JHM, there are doctors and even entire institutions that advocate for all sorts of nonsense. Science/Evidence based medicine has always pushed against large parts of medicine, if you aren't familiar with this fact you're not even born. Just google those terms to understand better.

Doctors used to think electroshock therapy should be used on a large swath of mental health patients.

In retrospect, it was an awful reaction, and not based on good science. The problem right now is that a LOT of bad science is distorting facts because scientists are trying to make a buck for think tanks, biased organizations and corporations, and a news media that wants to jump onto bandwagons at the drop of a hat.

The replication crisis is real. Most of the studies done with transgenderism being a solution for minors relate to this crisis. The incidence rate for suicide does not improve with surgery and puberty blockers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

"Unfortunately, the authors of the latest study assume that these disparities primarily (if not exclusively) are owing to adverse treatment of trans-identifying youth by society and by their families—a theory called minority stress theory.

They say more research needs to be done to “comprehensively examine the factors (e.g. gender minority stress) that explain why transgender adolescents experience higher odds of suicide behavior.” Thus, they rule out from the start the possibility that the actual transition from female to male might play a role in aggravating stress and provoking one to suicide.

To support this, they cite a seriously flawed study that alleges trans-identifying youth receive mental health benefits when affirmed by their families. That study’s sample size was very small, it was short-term, and—critically—relied solely upon parent assessment to rate the children’s mental health."

https://www.dailysignal.com/2018/09/18/new-study-on-transgende r-teen-suicide-doesnt-prove-kids-need-gender-transition-therapy/

>>>Doctors used to think electroshock therapy should be used on a large swath of mental health patients.

>>>In retrospect, it was an awful reaction, and not based on good science.

I have to wonder how much of Brawndo's appraisal here is based on "good science", and how much of it is based on seeing "One Flew Over the Cukoos Nest"

ECT is still in use today, usually in cases of servere depression, mania, or bipolar disease, when patients don't respond to medication. Since these medications didn't exust when ECT was first being used, that was by necessity a much larger swath of patients. These days, ECT is administered under general anesthsia, with much greater precision, minimizing the side-effects. Its success rate in patients who don't respond to medication for depression, is variously characterized as between two thirds and 83 per cent.

Medicine evolves, but people can't wait for it. At 27, y father had open heart surgery in Bethesda during the early sixties when it was considered a big deal, and the staples they used to repair his heart were "experimental". This caused years of side effects, irregular heartbeat incidents up into his 40s. Then, they developed medication that stopped the side effects, and my Dad is now 83, quite active and having a great time.

Yes, there's a good chance, even a probability, that better treatments will exist one day, or that the same treatment may be used with more precision.

Okay, well now I know.something about evidence-based, and it's certainly interesting, but it doesn't cancel out my objection to the name.. Its good to have criteria for evaluating evidence, and surely some evidence is more reliable than other evidence, but all evidence is evidence, and so the name is misleading and condescending at best


And gmol is still citing an unspecified number of unnamed doctors who he's not actually quoting, so.... EVIDENCE?

Does the experience, preferences, and responsiveness of the individual patient count as evidence?

Evidence based medicine doesn't mean 'all evidence is evidence'. Look up 'science based medicine', it's a good site (and had a recent article on ECT).

There are three links (two to BMJ articles) that describe opinions from doctors (doctors wrote those BMJ articles) in the other thread. Not sure how in the world you can claim that there aren't names attached to the authors of those articles (you can even see their qualifications if you hover over their names).

Look at the "number of' doctors described in this article.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/27/trans-lobby-pr essure-pushing-young-people-to-transition

>>>Evidence based medicine doesn't mean 'all evidence is evidence'.

Obviously not. But all evidence IS evidence, so if the term means anything at all, some kinds of evidence are excluded from "evidence".

Of course, I can accept that some forms of evidence are more valuble than others, but whatever values "evidence-based medicine" embraces, the language suggests that it's neutral, and since I know it's not, I'm a long way from accepting this at face value, longer than you're about to take me.

>>>Not sure how in the world you can claim that there aren't names attached to the authors of those articles (you can even see their qualifications if you hover over their names).

What I said was that you didn't name them. I assumed that they had names.

Just to be clear, I did search google, and I found an extremely well-organized video about Evidence-based medicine on a channel called Heathcare Triage, stuck in the hopper. So far, I'm the only vote. I also subscribed to the channel.

The one criticism of Evidence based medicine that stuck in my mind was that risk can outweigh treatment.

After watching one video ( again, it was a REALLY GOOD video), my opinion, which no one, not even me, needs to worry about, is that evidence based medicine seems a good thing, a valuble discipline that can enrich and inform all aspects of health care, including individual treatment decisions, but I wouldn't trust it as the final arbiter of individual treatment decisions. Nor would I trust it as a cudgel to be used by condescending internet shitlords to push their agendas. I mean... you know... hypothetically.

Conclusions to be gathered from this YouTube-worthy travesty of a comments section:

• Medical decisions should be left to doctors based on evidence, not to Internet People
• gmol has some kind of weird obsessive hate for transsexuals. That's his own messed up issue that he should work through on his own.
• Marlon Brawndo: still a shit eating racist
• JHM means well and is trying to see all sides. I wish him well. I think he is missing how much trans-hate is underlying the 'won't someone think of the children!' moral panic, but he's keeping an open yet critical mind and that's really the best any of us can do.
• Some of these issues are really hard and nuanced, and could deal with more of us being like JHM!

Many people are becoming critical of gender identity ideology, including people who identify as trans. There is absolutely nothing hateful about being gender critical, it represents the facts around the disparities between males and females are heavily weighted against females and that sex stereotypes are harmful. Males can wear all the lipstick they like, they simply cannot be women. Enshrining the rights of females based on the arbitrary, completely subjective and whimsical notion of identity is quackers. Yaniv is walking around proudly with a sign that says in all caps "I'M A DANGEROUS MALE", gender identity legislation is encouraging a man like that and threaten women with lawsuits with no basis. This is insane.

gmol, identity is an important critical part. At the start it will be subjective as discovery includes applying definition, but in the end it is the appreciation of the solid base it provides.

My late diagnosis of functioning autism is a prime example. While dictating a disability as an identity can seem like an attack and subvert the idea of disabilities, both identity and diagnosis draw parallels. The start never makes sense, and the appeal of 'not anything at all' is alluring on grounds on the that you can end it at that moment. All I can say to that is, I always wondered what the premise of 'don't suggest that, they'll lose everything' was supposed to be. And as sappy it is to say 'I never lost anything' despite supremacist tones that can underlay 'losing' something to a disability, I technically didn't lose anything. Largely because I never had anything. Which is why that premise of 'losing anything' is actually dangerous. I'm still picking myself up because I couldn't do anything with my trauma with out an actual grounding to really put anything into perspective. I had to separate ideology from emotion. I had to learn that objectivity isn't easy. More importantly I had to learn that the very piss ass encouragement I received from family who didn't know what else to do due to circumstances was actually setting me back and putting me in an even worse spot because I would just be burying the lead deeper and deeper.

So yeah, if you want to pretend that this critical objectivity of gender ideology is just that, an ideology that is just now trending and gaining momentum, you can go eat a bullet or jump off a bridge.

Respectfully from someone who has actually been there.

I just want to point out that I did not say electroshock therapy was NEVER an option for mental patients. It was over prescribed and not used humanely for a long time and it had many, many victims who were tortured by it unnecessarily. Because doctors assumed the data they were given was accurate but it was often skewed towards making electroshock therapy look like the end all to problems when it fact it often exacerbated things for the patients involved or the dosage was far too high.

I compare that to today's reality because I don't think doctors who rely on bad data are doing children any favors by IGNORING all the facts that state that most of these kids simply grow out of the feelings that they want to be another gender or cross dress when puberty hits. I also think it should be totally, 100% illegal to give a child puberty blockers at all, and it should be a jailable offense.

Brawndo, you have it backwards. Think tanks pay for scientific studies and the results are cherry picked. Why should a person practicing scientific method in any state risk their reputation farther with the scientific community than necessary? Once you've built a reputation, it becomes easier for the public to laugh at the think tank for hiring you. The only doctors who drop facts and statements for money are those willing to work for privatized healthcare.

Also, I'm gay. And growing up, the first time the question of gender identity came up, it just wasn't strong enough to keep thinking about it. Granted I'm also a functioning autistic, but that just made things more complicated in unraveling who I was down the line, yet the whole gender identity just wasn't strong enough to stick well before I hit puberty.

♠ + ♋

*Think tanks pay for the study and then cherry pick data that they wish to market

I wouldn't be surprised if Poe was 60% gay, prove me wrong.

I can't tell if you get it. You've clearly never heard of why "science/evidence-based medicine" is a thing. Look it up. It isn't unnamed ffs, google "puberty blocker bmj".

***€You've clearly never heard of why "science/evidence-based medicine" is a thing.

I've never heard of it. You know why? Because I'm a random guy posting in the POETV comments.

I give you enough credit that you are able to google terms. I put this link up in one the last videos, here are some doctors that are seriously concerned about giving children puberty blockers in terms of safety and efficacy:


"The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice in children." (2019)

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirm ing-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

"Use of puberty blockers for gender dysphoria: a momentous step in the dark."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30655265

"Drug used to halt puberty in children may cause lasting health problems"
https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-he alth-problems/


etc.

****I give you enough credit that you are able to google terms.


Thank you.

"The University of Google is where I got my degree."-- Jenny McCarthy

Remember when Gmol told me about how important family is as if I were completely incapable of associating a basic pain of resentment of what I grew up with and the knowledge that what I dealt with is most likely what my family is dealing with?

Youi're an insular piece of shit and have no room to condescendingly tell someone to be 'objective', gmol.

Remember when Gmol took my dissatisfaction of their interpretation of my question as an out to say "At least I tried!"

>>>• JHM means well and is trying to see all sides. I wish him well. I think he is missing how much trans-hate is underlying the 'won't someone think of the children!' moral panic, but he's keeping an open yet critical mind and that's really the best any of us can do.

I'm not trying to see all sides. There's the one side that quite possibly none of us can see, and is the only side that matters IN THIS PARTICULAR DISCUSSION, and that is the effects of puberty blockers on individual patients. That's completely separate from what I believe or what anyone else believes about gender dysphoria.

>>>I think he is missing how much trans-hate is underlying the 'won't someone think of the children!' moral panic, but he's keeping an open yet critical mind and that's really the best any of us can do.

Does it even matter? I read something really interesting by a black columnist recently, about racism. It's become influential to me, and maybe I could find the piece to cite it, and to quite it more accurately. He wrote that white people see racism in terms of overall character, and black people see it in terms of justice. In other words, since there is strong evidence that Donald Trump is actively trying to place obstacles in the way, IN EFFECT, supporting Donald Trump makes you racist, and "in effect" is what counts. Not whether you hate black people, or have black friends, or even if you're black. Or if you're a bad person.


>>>gmol has some kind of weird obsessive hate for transsexuals.

Not necessarily. Not everybody has the capacity to question the traditional concept of gender, which, after all, is quite possibly the first thing that we learn about the world. That's not quite the same thing as hating other people. It could just be fear of THE LIBERALS, making our concepts of race and gender evolve. That may not be GMOL's deal, either. I don't presume to know what GMOL's deal is.

Let's give GMOL credit for being well informed, to the extent that I am better informed for interacting with him.

>>>Many people are becoming critical of gender identity ideology, including people who identify as trans. There is absolutely nothing hateful about being gender critical, it represents the facts around the disparities between males and females are heavily weighted against females and that sex stereotypes are harmful.

Okay, well "many people" who criticize "gender ideology" are hugely fucking ignorant, primarily of how gender identity issues have been treated since the 1940s, with a long track record of success, which they identify as "a trend". They identify being transgender as "a mental illness", which is a misconception because treating it as a mental illness doesn't have much of a track record of good outcomes, and treatment with hormones and possibly surgery has a track record of good outcomes.

It's all about the outcomes. The concept of gender is shaped by the outcomes, and not by the natural, intuitive (but presently untrue) assumption that the mind is more malleable than the body.

I have never said anything racist.

None of you seems to have any idea what actual racism looks like. I am not white. I have seen actual racism. I have been assaulted for it by white people. I have been called disgusting names. I have been treated like garbage, especially in my young teens.

And I don't assume everyone is a racist because I'm not an anti-intellectual cult member of the left who just uses that word as a convenient shield to reality. You vacuous, precious, privileged, mentally lazy, condescending piece of shit.

Also you're wrong and no child should be castrated. I guess I'm the sole voice of reason here yet again. But I don't want children to kill themselves from being mutilated by their insane parents who want a trendy trans kid, so I'm racist.

You people are so fucking stupid. And you're the reason Trump will win in 2020. You. Not him. You.

News flash, you can be homophobic, transphobic and racist simultaneously!

Even better is when you're a piece of shit you can claim that the entire criticism of you is being racist.

I have no doubt if they manage to elect or primary Kamala Harris that we'll be fucked even worse than now in the next election cycle.

So yeah, how is that persecution complex that only the left has working out for you?

Wait, I knew I forgot something








♠ + ♋

Well luckily I will always have white people to explain to me what wrong and right is, and what is and isn't racist. Seeing as how I am not white and I obviously need you to do that for me.

Reality break: It's possible to dislike & criticism certain individuals who are gay/trans/whatever without hating the entirety of the queer spectrum.

JHM, this page is already too long so I'll keep my response short (the Alex Jones/Yaniv video will presumably be up soon where the discussion can continue).

Just this:

"Okay, well "many people" who criticize "gender ideology" are hugely fucking ignorant, primarily of how gender identity issues have been treated since the 1940s..."

You are being way too loose with your terms here. Money came up with 'gender' in this context (look at the terrifying 'treatment' of David Reimer). No one used 'gender identity' clinically t in the 40s. Look deep and hard and try to find a sensible definition of 'gender' and how it is measured. You won't find it, just a vague nebulous term that can mean anything between 'sex' and 'personality'.

Brawndo, how the fuck do you think I feel when I see how welcoming the neurodiversity movement is, knowing that during my time growing up it wouldn't have been considered due to a bad era of psychology plagued with self-help marketing burning the fuck out of my family and hearing people in the most obnoxious manner treat mental health as matter for the 'other's?

Now I can definitely see how a minority who is told about the culture war and how the left is their savior only to find the establishment doesn't give two shits about them can get deeply entrenched in resentment. I can see how they can go from 'fuck you' to 'fuck them all' and vote republican on reason that shit will get worse for you either way but at least you'll get the so called saviors hand wringing while you die.

It's already a given that not being objective to a child's well being is wrong. But there is a line where the objectivity becomes authoritarian in itself. You're just making a mountain out of a mole hill with this shit.

You're not white and being called a racist. Guess what? That's a criticism you have to take consideration for. Not because you experienced it for yourself, but because anyone can be oblivious to adopting bigotry. Why do you think Louis C.K. is fucking loathed for attempting to wash out the homophobia from the f slur? Why do you think people use the r slur or any slur at that? Because they think bigotry comes in a pointy hat, white robe or a swastika. Everyone's told to be a contributing member of society but that phrase get so abridged that it comes off as surviving over anything else. Hell, the country is trying to hand over imperialism and colonialism to minorities in hopes that they can keep the seat warm so they can "peacefully" wrestle it back in a political manner back to the whites.

Hell, if you're sad that I'm wishing a shovel to your face plus cancer, then I have to be real with this. Compassion doesn't disappear when civility isn't apparent. I still have to protect myself and what I believe in. I can't pretend that everyone has a conscience. That's the entire reason when liberals and conservatives talk about peaceful protest, they never say anything of MLK jr's perspective of the riots that draws a sense of compassion, they say nothing of the constant political back-peddling, dismissal and violence in the courts to suppress minorities or even MLK jr's perspective of class, wealth distribution and economy. They only say 'turn the other cheek' and leave you to fill in the blanks. And obviously that's not going to last long if you experience physical violence.

If there is any immediate advise I can give you is to think about taking a hiatus from the internet. I know that may seem condescending in the most basic internet put-down next to a homophobic retort of suck a dick, but that's how those emotions can work against you.

Shoeless, just replied to you below.

You simply just gave me a giant scroll to say the same shit you've always been saying.

No one would prescribe any blockers to a child who can not pass a screening for obvious reasons biologically. Where that shit you're obsessively pushing comes from, I do not know. I have never heard of such a thing. I can't imagine a scenario where that would exist. Not even in 'upper' middle class where mental health is easily accessible and especially not below.

Where the hell are you getting this bullshit of parents purposefully creating trans kids? Because that right there says more that you're being sold shit that you're piss-ass cynicism can bite down on.

The mental health scenario I dealt with had every bit of good intention despite the bullshit my family dealt with. Hell, when I ended up being a shoulder for a homeless youth the scenario was the mother-in-law wouldn't allow any alternative's for their bi-polar disorder. People don't bypass the health system. Money is the only god damn reason anyone goes insane or fucking dies.

You're going to tell me that the vigilance over bigotry is worthless when it's poor people who are affected? Economic disparity, inequality are both remnants of systematic racism. Claiming that it is now classism only is the entire purpose of washing out a racist history. The two go so well together that it is the very point of using classism in place of racism so any shit that's directly relevant to poverty can be claimed as in the past or a simple hurdle.

At this point I'm more convinced you're not a minority, because there's no money to make off of PoeTV.

A note about that homeless youth is that the alternative they were wanting to try was medicinal marijuana. Their current medication was making it impossible to function. So they were kicked out for dissenting.

In addition to that homeless youth, another homeless person who I met felt that they had autism, but was kicked out since their parents didn't want to pay any extra for an evaluation and kicked them out when they said the pills weren't working and refused to take them.

So I want to make this clear, where the hell are you getting this bullshit when people clearly put more authority in to the system to the point of abusive neglect especially when this abusive neglect starts in the middle, not before where cautions of messing with biology and the importance of screenings are given.

I don't think there is a child on Earth who "qualifies" for a "screen test" for fucking puberty blockers.

I also don't think there is a child on Earth that qualifies for methamphetamines.

James Younger is a six year old boy whose pediatrician mother started describing as trans when he was 2. She wanted a baby girl and the father has been fighting against her smear campaign and her campaign to castrate her son chemically has been the center of a hotly debated "diagnosis" which she completely coached.

Some people will lie. Some people will coach their children because they want trans kids. Children don't know any better. Part of what child abuse is, is not protecting a child and purposefully putting that child in danger. And convincing that child that the abuse is normal. I believe that crossdressing a three year old and declaring that child trans is abuse.

You live in an imaginary world where this is not even remotely possible because everyone who claims trans over their child is automatically believable in your book. Three year olds cannot declare what gender they are.

And what I am reading is that said mother is waiting until the child is 8. Completely opposite of your claim of blockers being prescribed at 3.

https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/11/texas-mom-says-6-year-old-bo y-is-transgender-dad-disagrees-and-could-lose-custody/

Also to note of the description of the therapist is obviously attempting to tie this as a danger of LGBTQ acceptance.

Let me put it this way.

You're telling me to accept the early abuse as a possibility

While also telling me that everyone is up in arms about bigotry, specifically racism.

You're telling me to accept a possibility, not the occurrence. And what occurrence you're giving me is sketchy at best. Yet one of the bigger problems of paranoia is that it bases it's fears more on the possibility than the occurrence. And you're telling me that I'm possibly paranoid.

Also to note, the screen test is a measure as to where to go next whether it's to wait or to go further or to even provide feedback to the parent/guardian. You don't 'qualify' for an evaluation, screen test, etc.

On top of this, saying that no child would ever qualify completely dismisses neurodiversity, which while does include such items as ADHD, autism and as well dismisses that the biology taught on gender is extremely simplified

That last paragraph is a mess.

Neurodiversity includes ADHD, Autism, Bi-Polar and indirectly includes the broader spectrum of gender and biology.

Gee, thanks. Maybe when I grow up and understand the world better I can be just like you guys. You know, once I learn to think like you, I'll be a real person with an excuse to have my own ideas.

Could you be any more condescending?

Dunning Kruger implies that I am unskilled, unintelligent, and that I have absolute ignorance. As a person of color, I also get to be called Uncle Tom and traitor by people who are highly emotional and never get called out on the Dunning Kruger effect, even though I am probably far more well read than they are.

You have no idea what my background or education is. You have no idea how intelligent I am. You talk down to me and you dismiss me because you are in an echo chamber and a lot of people on the right are guilty of the same thing. I don't subscribe to any idea or philosophy without researching it. It is the height of white arrogance that a person of color has to be liberal and go along with everything liberals say just because "I should know better".

Seriously, fuck you.

Fuck you right back, buddy. The reason why I know more than you do is because I'm sixty-one years old.

And that comes with a lot of baggage. It makes me cautious, and compromising, and even conservative, terrified that my last thought will be that everything I ever believed in is doomed. Sometimes, I look at the world and wish with all my heart for my old status quo back, even though in my mind, I understand that's neither what the world needs, or what the world is going to get, and that MAGA is simply someone else's idea of "the old status quo".

And I sure as fuck don't know everything. But I know more than you do. You don't believe that, but you will, if you manage to live long enough.

Marlon Brawndo is an unapologetic racist. He can fuck right off.