I don't want to get into another big argument with ashtar, because, you know, he'll just destroy me.

So I want to ask the room if anyone else who saw this video got a whole lot of specific new information about the fake science and multiple conflicts of interest that created the anti-vax movement. I've seen multiple reports about Andrew Wakefield, and I knew his study has been discredited, but this goes far beyond that.

I'm sure this information is available elsewhere, but I've never seen anything approaching this level of reporting before, and I'm sure that's because most reporters don't have the time for understanding this. This is an important story for its own sake, and a great case study in how misinformation is created and incentivized.

As HB said I was just tangentially aware that the study was bullshit, rather than specifically knowing it was a bullshit scam.

I had definitely heard all this before.

Ok, I listen to podcast, ok?

There is literally no subject that I don't have a vague recollection of some douchebag from LA or Brooklyn saying something about.

as SolRo said as HB said

Andrew Wakefield is a pretty good example of how a bad faith actor perpetuates and exploits the erosion of public confidence in institutions. What's going to stop your massive reforms is the erosion of public confidence in institutions, as perpetuated and exploited by the Republican party.

You tell me it'\s the institution.
You better free your mind instead.

I'm just saying that maybe if the entire medical industry in America was something other than an insanely cynical and exploitative and destructive disaster, maybe then conspiracy theories about this industry would get less traction.

Nuanced as usual, Sugarsmacks.

You're just saying that there's no point in trying to tell the truth

because:

People don't believe doctors.

because:

The entire medical industry is an insanely cynical, exploitative and destructive disaster. kind of circular, no?

Its worth noting that the vaccine scare in Britain that HBomb is describing has peaked. According to.HBomb, in 2014 there was a study of how to talk people out of their vaccine paranoia, without any success, but a few years later, Britain's vaccination rate is well above. Maybe sometimes the truth can win in the end after all.

hmmm what's different about the healthcare system in the UK as compared to the US?

you're never going to get people in America to trust medical institutions while those same medical institutions are enabled and encouraged by our government to basically murder and or rob people via spreadsheet

I'd call this a nonsense argument, but it lacks an argument.

There's room for a middle ground here.

Smack is right that the whole system is garbage, but within that system there IS a core of scientific medicine that is still relevant. The system is designed to shield individual doctors from really being involved in the billing, insurance, patient selection, etc. Those individual doctors (for the most part) can and make good medical recommendations. That does "trickle up" through the system to the point where IF you can afford it and you're a normal-enough citizen, the system does work to provide medicine.

JMHF is right in that a major part of the recruitment system of the alt-right and conspiracy theories is just sheer loneliness and the lack of human connection. A single in-person friend who has a strong opinion (and can explain it effectively) has a HUGE impact on your own opinion. It's important to try to rebuke anti-vaccine and other antisocial conspiracies in-person, it's way more important than doing it online.

I think you're describing a system that might have existed once, but certainly does not now. It's been a long time since most doctors were uninvolved with billing, insurance, etc. as anyone that has been billed thousands of dollars by an out-of-network doctor that merely wandered into their room for a moment can attest. A doctor isn't just an individual anymore they are a business first and foremost, and many of them go out of their way to maximize profits.

Sure, but that's still financial/billing abuse, not medical abuse. I guess doctors have overprescribed medication, notably opioids, due to financial incentives. I'd be in favour of sending all those doctors to the bottom of the ocean, then the leftover ones would at least not have medically/biologically harmed their patients.

>>>>hmmm what's different about the healthcare system in the UK as compared to the US?

Funny you should ask. I recently saw a 94 minute YouTube video about how a handful of doctors in the UK (and one in the U.S.) manipulated data in an elaborate scheme to create a market for a vaccine that one of them had patented. Its called "Vaccines: A measured response." Maybe you should Google it.

>>>It's been a long time since most doctors were uninvolved with billing, insurance, etc. as anyone that has been billed thousands of dollars by an out-of-network doctor that merely wandered into their room for a moment can attest.

THIS IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF REALITY.

OBVIOUSLY, free market medicine is an unworkable idea, we all agree about that, even the idiot who insists that until we fix free market medicine, giving people accurate information about vaccines is "very wrong".

A big part of the problem with free market medicine is that doctors have become UNINVOLVED in billing. A hundred years ago, a bill from a doctor might well have been typed by the Doctor himself. Now it comes from a corporate health network.

>>> I guess doctors have overprescribed medication, notably opioids, due to financial incentives.

I would say that Doctors overprescribed opiates because of aggressive marketing. Financial incentives were a part of that. Perdue did everything they could to play down the risk of addiction, including coining the term "pseudoaddiction", and apparently by some real corrupt collusion with an official at the FDA during the approval process.

Last night I rewatched the 4 hour Alex Gibney documentary about the opioid crisis, Crime of the Century on HBO Max, and what some doctors indulged in were less "financial incentives" than "bribes".