None of this is okay. Everyone is wrong.

Especially all the western people cheering on the war because they think their side is winning, and reveling of the deaths of Russian conscripts.

the dead Ukrainian civilians are wrong?

did they deserve to die?

If that’s what you took from that statement I don’t even know how much I need to dumb things down for you.

"everyone is wrong"

Putin wrong.

NATO wrong.

Western countries funneling arms to Ukraine wrong.

Zelensky cheerleading his countrymen to fight “to the last man” because of his nato membership ambitions wrong.

Western media constantly broadcasting how Ukrainian civilians are enthusiastic volunteer combatants wrong.

Civilians and conscripts caught in the middle have no choice or blame in the matter.

I’ll add more;

Western media ignoring Ukrainian war crimes in the separatist regions the past 8 years because war crimes against people not “in the west” are okay, is wrong.

Your desire to rape people is wrong.

Looks like Ukraine should commit to neutrality and probably turn Zelensky over to Russia imho.

Fuck Putin. This is all his doing. It was unprovoked and you shit lords shame Ukraine for daring to defend itself.

Ceding to Russia's demands may not be the 'right' answer in this case but it would certainly be the least costly in terms of human life. Who's fight is this anyway?

the mental model of me that exists solely in your head. . . is not my responsibility.

Yes, this is horrible.

But it's all worth it for Ukrainian NATO membership! Thank you for your heroic sacrifice, guys! That goal is totally worth these deaths and atrocities! No number of lives is too much to achieve US regional security dominance!

I mean, think about how awesome this outcome is for US interests. We get to use our proxies to bleed one of our regional rivals, isolate them economically, and just generally fuck them up without risking American lives. NATO gets a reason for existing again. People see how cool and effective the weapon systems we sell are. Russia looks weak and bad and we gain regional influence.

Now, imagine a world where we had negotiated Ukrainian neutrality and none of this cool stuff happened. Gross!

I think you'll agree that a few dead Ukrainians is a small price to pay.

***** for the real life Prison Experiment of conscript soldiers committing rape and murder and an innocent and democratic nation, and for the ability of modern technology such as remote drones able to pick up on coldblooded murder in more detail than ever before.

American War crimes have often occurred yes, but usually as a result of neglect, rushed planning, inappropriate use of overly powerful munitions and bad intel from the ground in areas of operation. These war crimes are a genocide, as the intent is clearly to completely level these villages and cities, but only after terrorizing the citizenry and as we all well know, raping them. I don't think the two types of war crimes are really comparable at this point.

Much like Russia has made a deepfake video of Zelensky asking his people to surrender, the echochamber of Solro+Crackersmack+Ashtar is crying in fake pity for Ukrainian people asking them to surrender to Russia is a similar effort by their rape-loving side to try and legalize rape via the spread of Russian rule into Ukraine.

Though I already knew that the only right answer to this conflict would be for Ukraine to win entirely (it is on the way to doing so now) and then to join NATO afterwards (it is doing so), I now know even more so that to side with the opinion of the above three named cronies is clearly the wrong side of history.

Much like loving Trump is clearly wrong in hindsight, soon we will be seeing Putin overthrown or assassinated, and probably deepfaked into a phony rule for a time as Russia transitions its figurehead from the Oligarchy that runs it away from bloodthirsty, neo-nazi supplying and supporting Putin. I look forward to cyber-putin's gay smirks being simulated on youtube videos and to hear the whining of Ashtar and Cracksmacker and SolRus claiming he's still alive.

@simillion

HAHAHA

Just because you didn’t have instagram video of it you excuse 200,000+++ dead Iraqi and Afghani civilians. All that footage of American Apaches spraying white phosphorus on Faluja didn’t really happen because it didn’t show up in your twitter timeline.

The white deaths are really that much more relatable to you, than a bunch of dirty Arabs, at the end of the day, aren’t they?

(And by white death I obviously mean western supporting whites, you sick fucks love watching Russian conscripts burning alive in tanks)

Okay okay, I get it, all you can say in response to the deaths of all the innocent people portrayed just above you is to constantly point out other war crimes made by other countries, of which the US is not the only one of course. Has any of it been excusable? no, of course not. The neglect, idiocy, and lack of capacity of the US military to conduct proper operations in the middle east is a well known fact thanks to the hard work of journalists (who Putin openly assassinates you know) making us all aware of it. At least in the US the media has been able to publicize American war crimes openly (I hear of it on NPR, I know about whole buildings full of innocent civilians being mistakenly drone-bombed and the radio chatter of US drone pilots realizing what they had done, seeing civilian bodies piling up under them.)

If you want to know how American war crimes actually happen in detail, besides posting your old ass Bush era shock and awe travesties which I see in the hopper, why don't you review a detailed article describing the actual scope and scale and method by which the US has committed such mistakes.

The total civilian deathcount, as estimated by this brave reporting, is 1400 civilians over five years.

The total civilian death count in Ukraine far exceeds that already and it has barely been a month.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/13/1072735380/journalist-says-u-s- air-war-against-isis-killed-countless-civilians-in-syria

In the past, all of us have made hundreds of posts angrily crying out against those actions and the fact that a military industrial complex dominates US geopolitics, creating any excuses possible to test and sell their hardware. At no point in this entire Ukrainian conflict have we said that we changed our minds about all that. Your constant retorting that we are not allowed to decry Putin for the neonazi babyboy that he is because these things happened, even when we ARE trying our best to pay attention to and call out the crime that is a military industrial complex mere existence, is getting very, very old. And repetitive. You have nothing else to say in defense of Putin, and soon, you won't even have a Putin to drool over. Sorry your dreams of wanton rape won't be realized buddy.

Listen, your argument of “I don’t like American war crimes (while I downplay them by over a factor of 200) and that means I personally don’t deserve any punishment and America’s war crimes get retroactively pardoned because of my personal objections.” Doesn’t make me think of you as any less a hypocrite that you are.

You Americans thinking that every Russian civilian deserves to suffer economic ruin or conscript a fiery death on the battlefields of Ukraine makes me think you’re just self-absorbed monsters who only think about your own personal ambitions and viscerally enjoy the violent deaths of anyone you consider your enemies.

Jangbones, your braindead jingoism and fucking RAPE (!) threats are why I roll my eyes at everyone coming out of the woodwork saying "Sure, the USA invaded Iraq under false pretenses, destroyed its infrastructure, killed its civilians, set up a puppet regime BUTOHMYGODMANTHISISDIFFERENTWENEEDTODOSOMETHING!"

Donate to Charitable Causes. Send desperately needed medical supplies. Organize support for the Ukrainian refugees we'll have coming here soon. Support organizations pushing for a ceasefire.

But stop crying on the fucking internet and DO something.

"American War crimes have often occurred yes, but usually as a result of neglect, rushed planning, inappropriate use of overly powerful munitions and bad intel from the ground in areas of operation."

I love that liberals who think of America as this well meaning goof just stumbling from committing atrocity after atrocity like Mr. Bean also have a rock-solid view of themselves as the most serious and moral people in the room.

AW GEEZ GUYS I KNIFE MISSILE'D A WEEDING AW GEEZ DARN I RAN AN EXTRA-JUDICIAL TORTURE CAMP FOR 20 YEARS OH SHOOT I KEEP ARMING A PROXY DOING A GENOCIDE AND CREATING THE WORST FAMINE IN 100 YEAR OOPS MY BAD I MEAN WELL

"Though I already knew that the only right answer to this conflict would be for Ukraine to win entirely (it is on the way to doing so now) and then to join NATO afterwards (it is doing so), I now know even more so that to side with the opinion of the above three named cronies is clearly the wrong side of history."

Like I said! No number of Ukrainian deaths is too high to ensure the supremacy of US security interests! Let's bravely fight to the last Ukrainian!

Kissinger, Dulles brothers etc are all war criminals. Hard to name an administration where war crimes haven't happened because of direct malfeasance by us.

The essential meaning of geopolitics and the current science of international relations is Darwinian at its core, based on the self-serving economic, military and therefore existential needs of the state over any other ethical metric, such as human life, human suffering.

Since every geopolitical entity has essentially chosen to serve its own interests geopolitically justified by an existential concern, every geopolitical entity in the world has inevitably "committed war crimes" seeing as such actions enhance their own survival (they believed) though often having no concern whatsoever for whatever other geopolitical entity was affected.

The hope of the UN and any other federation of nations is to acknowledge that all nations, like all people, should have a right to exist, and though it has done nearly nothing to enforce that belief as was shown well in the debate here, there is clearly a 5000+ year precedent that continuing a pattern of independent geopolitical activity is going to create an endless pattern of human war and war crimes.

To decide if our planet "needs" such actions to sustain us is a decision we aren't meant to make, because it is our anger that some of us feel they have the power to destroy others itself that we need to address. in reality, we know that sustainability itself is an utter puzzle that we have yet to work out, where many actions we take are spiraling us towards doom, not just wartime or military or imperialist actions, but even things we previously (centuries ago previously) thought of as good, such as industrialization.

Therefore, to claim that war must exist, or that Putin must invade Ukraine, or that this military operation was justified in any way is to be wrong, as we only know that we do not understand our own doom. Survival of our species may not require war at all, and we have no way of knowing. Therefore, nobody is so omniscient as to know that this war is necessary.

However, what is changing across the world, a factor that matters for geopolitical reasons, ethical reasons, and military strategic reasons, is communication and information. Where information and communication is free, and for those with access to it, there is true freedom and power. Where information is controlled and restricted, there live the most powerless of the world, the Uighur people being re-educated in a Chinese concentration camp, the Afghani who has no access to the internet or education due to Taliban rule, the Russian who believes that Ukraine is filled to the brim with Nazis and aggressed on Russia.

The counter to free information that Putin has invented is disinformation. Not only disinformation but also sometimes convincing arguments that raise qualities that a free society has that tends to weaken social cohesion and bring chaos. These arguments, being made quite repetitively by SolRo and Crackersmack and Ashtar, and really just those three accounts, are meant to create doubt that there is still a purpose behind supporting Ukrainian freedom, and only make an argument that, ironically, relies on free information to be possible (because we SHOULD have guilt, knowledge, awareness, and make changes based on past US mistakes, past mistakes of all geopolitical entities), but obfuscates completely that the driving need of all of humanity is to know itself, know its own doom and prevent it, and that knowing and sharing knowledge is the real value to protect in this world, if there is to be any hope of our survival.

Ukraine is fighting for that freedom of information and communication as much as it is fighting for its right to exist, and it is even willing to sacrifice UN or NATO membership to keep that key freedom, in the hopes that we all share that knowing our mistakes may allow us someday to mend them.

Every argument that has been made by SolRo, Ashtar and Crackersmack, seeing as these three's argument completely relies on a core belief in the value of freely knowing each nation's crimes, therefore fully supports the notion that Ukraine, also, must maintain its free access to information and knowledge. So, well done you three, you've completely convinced me.

What the hell is going on in here? Wait, don't answer that.

Update on “Ukraine fighting for freedom of information and communication” ; Ukraine has passed laws that make it illegal to post any evidence of Ukraine losing the war and many Ukrainians have been jailed for doing ‘treasonous’ things like posting videos of something exploding on the horizon. The country is still a jail that doesn’t allow any male citizen to escape and the government gleefully posts videos of their border guards capturing anyone trying to escape, as a deterrent for others. High level government officials have publicly declared the need to cleanse/reeducate any ethnic Russian/russian supporting civilians in regions Ukraine hopes to capture. And currently, as Ukraine is losing territory and crying about ammunition shortages, it is lobbing unguided rocket missile salvos at Russian border cities full of civilians to accomplish…?

Real freedom fighters.

"Update on “Ukraine fighting for freedom of information and communication” ; Ukraine has passed laws that make it illegal to post any evidence of Ukraine losing the war and many Ukrainians have been jailed for doing ‘treasonous’ things like posting videos of something exploding on the horizon. The country is still a jail that doesn’t allow any male citizen to escape and the government gleefully posts videos of their border guards capturing anyone trying to escape, as a deterrent for others. High level government officials have publicly declared the need to cleanse/reeducate any ethnic Russian/russian supporting civilians in regions Ukraine hopes to capture. And currently, as Ukraine is losing territory and crying about ammunition shortages, it is lobbing unguided rocket missile salvos at Russian border cities full of civilians to accomplish…?

Real freedom fighters."

yeah man it's almost like that's pretty much SOP for most countries operating under an invasion by a hostile force dealing with saboteurs and collaborators. large swaths of the ukrainian armed forces are still using russian on a day to day basis years after those "dastardly nazis" passed the ukrainian language law in 2019 but sure dude yeah okay "ethnic cleansing" for fuck's sake. trying to paint the reaction to putin's naked aggression as some grand assault on the russian identity is so fucking half-ass and sad

and of course in your world we have to consider some spectre of a future "ethnic cleansing" of russians as being more pressing than the actual ethnic cleansing of mariupol, the bucha massacre, the missile strikes, kidnapping ukrainian kids & sending them off to siberia, etc because something something NATO something or because the CIA exists or russia's eternal paranoia or whatever

what is it trying to accomplish? i dunno dude maybe they're just trying not let history repeat itself and let russia invade and dick up everything again, for the umpteenth fucking time. fucking budapest memorandum alone should have settled this until the end of fucking time but here we are

A reckoning requires knowing, and not just knowing after the fact, but knowing as soon as possible and by as many people as possible to drive some sort of response.

In this conflict, through Ukraine being a more Westernized society and with more access to modern technology, there will be more knowing, and therefore more reckoning, then in any conflict ever before.

It just might be hard to see that happening given every other past conflict as precedent, but the unprecedented ability for the whole "free" world to witness this conflict is what lends hope that this reckoning actually will come, and likely sooner than anyone expects from precedent also.

"unprovoked" doing a whole lot of work here

I always support attacking comedians no matter the circumstances.

Ukraine still hasn't joined NATO and their famous Nazi brigade is fighting a defensive war against OTHER facsists. What did they do to piss you off?

Five stars for atrocities. Yikes.

As far as your comment, I didn't realize that someone could unilaterally join NATO, and as far as the idea that Ukraine had nazis, well yes, but so does the US, and a few countries in western Europe, so what's your point?

"Ukraine is equally to blame" - means you're a moron and you know nothing about what you're talking about.

Was Ukraine responsible for Chernobyl? Was Ukraine responsible for being invaded AFTER they were already independent? Were they responsible for becoming a SSR during their time in the Soviet Union? Or did they have no choice in the matter?

It’s NATOs fault at the end of the day.

NATO is the threat to Russia, not Ukraine.

If NATO said no more new memberships, I doubt this would have happened. But NATO (really, America and the UK) had to act like they own the European and Asian continents and spit in Putins face about Russian security concerns.

NATO should have dissolved right alongside the Warsaw Pact in 1991. It was wrong to not only continue existing but grow.

That being said, NATO did not intervene in Chechnya (twice)

NATO did not intervene when Georgia was invaded due to pursuing membership (nor is it currently a member).

NATO did not intervene when Crimea was annexed.

NATO did not intervene with the whole Transnistria mess.

NATO did not intervene when its member states were repeatedly subjected to cyberattacks.

NATO did not intervene when its member states had their airspace repeatedly violated by Russian aircraft over a period of decades.

NATO did not intervene when foreign agents repeatedly carried out attacks and poisonings on foreign soil.

NATO STILL has not intervened directly, having repeatedly denied Ukraine's demand for a no-fly zone, stressed its defensive stance.

So to claim Russia was driven to this by NATO is just sad and pathetic. It's such a bad faith argument its not even worth getting angry over.

The issue with NATO is article 5 and its rampant expansion of military bases and assets in member nations.

The west has already been building up the Ukrainian military in the 8 years since the western-backed coup, and the second Ukraine joins NATO any attack on the country triggers WW3 and probable nuclear Armageddon.

Going by the ‘least deaths’ precedent of killing 250,000+ Japanese civilians to stop WW2, I can asspull rationalize Putins invasion as trying to prevent WW3 between Russia/China and the west.

And in your dumbass dogpile jingoism I want to explain to me why NATO -needs- to put military bases and missile sites right on the Russia border if it’s trying to achieve world piece and isn’t just a mechanism for American military contractors to make more money.

"The issue with NATO is article 5 and its rampant expansion of military bases and assets in member nations."

Okay, and why is it expanding? Why are nations clamoring to join? In 1992 I'd accept NATO as a threat to Russia, post 2000 its a bulwark to Russian aggression.

"The west has already been building up the Ukrainian military in the 8 years since the western-backed coup, and the second Ukraine joins NATO any attack on the country triggers WW3 and probable nuclear Armageddon."

Yes, great summation, that's a third-grader's book report of the situation, purposely leaving out that 1) NATO doesn't want to admit Ukraine and has dragged out the process for years and 2) Zelensky knows NATO membership at this point is not tenable and has let it be known that Ukraine would be open to negotiating non-alliance.

"Going by the ‘least deaths’ precedent of killing 250,000+ Japanese civilians to stop WW2, I can asspull rationalize Putins invasion as trying to prevent WW3 between Russia/China and the west."

I guess the bitch had it coming, right Sol Ro? If only she let Father Russia have his way, I mean, he's been so STRESSED lately, hasn't he? Also, no mention of preventing World War III in the Foundations of Geopolitics, which Putin has followed to the point of quoting it directly.

"And in your dumbass dogpile jingoism I want to explain to me why NATO -needs- to put military bases and missile sites right on the Russia border if it’s trying to achieve world piece and isn’t just a mechanism for American military contractors to make more money."

It doesn't. I think suspension of accepting new NATO members to country directly bordering Russia (such as Finland and Georgia) should be on the table. Ukraine I can see following a path like Yugoslavia in the future and cannily working both sides.

After 20 years of fucking perma-War the LAST thing I want is American or NATO troops getting pulled into another stupid war. But that doesn't excuse Putin's fucking decade of recklessness. All I give a shit about now is a ceasefire leading to Russian troops out of Ukraine.

If the recent history of NATO had been mostly symbolic, with zero military expansion or buildup, I could see Putin be less paranoid about it.

But the fact that nato expanded military bases and missile batteries into new member states near the Russian border should explain Putins paranoia.

You’re again ignoring that Putin stated that he cannot accept further nato expansion to the Russian border as a redline. To which nato responded that it doesn’t give a shit what Russia thinks, while at the same time nato members are funneling advanced weaponry into potential future nato member states.

This is obvious provocation.

Yeah, it's a provocation. Seriously, fuck NATO for that Poland shit.

But if my neighbor tells me he's thinking of buying a gun, I don't get to break into his house, shoot him, and kill his dog because I'm "scared".

Shockingly, threatening and invading your neighbors for considering joining NATO is now causing NATO expansion. 10 years ago there was zero chance Finland or Sweden would join. The Ukrainian Invasion probably set Russia's foreign policy goals back decades.

This isn’t “my neighbor is buying a gun”

This is “my arch rival is giving my neighbor an automated grenade launcher, to be aimed at my house, because something something freedom and I’m the enemy of peace”

"The Ukrainian Invasion probably set Russia's foreign policy goals back decades."

Yep. This whole thing has been a big win for the US and NATO.

ROI for US/UK will be amazing. A couple billion in weapons and aid to do hundreds of billions of damage to the Russian economy.

Thousands of dead Ukrainians/Russians and dozens of raised cities cost nothing (to America).

The porn possibilities with "Fuck Tankies" are near endless.


- Autobot fucking in car form

- Literal Stalinists who fuck filthy capitalist western painted whores, paying the whores in fiat currency, causing inflation.

- Leatherbois jerking on panzers.

- Vore porn, the Tiananmen square man standing in front of the tanks, slowly eats the tanks. Winnie the Pooh is piloting the tanks and also gets eaten.

now and forever

Weird how the US doesn't recognize or support the ICC. I wonder why that is?

It's for a simple reason: Membership would allow for the trial of U.S. citizens for crimes committed on U.S. soil, which would be patently unconstitutional; a position that - without dissent - has been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court since the founding of the ICC 2002.

The US routinely blows up people it thinks are bad (based largely on data mining) outside of active war zones all around the world with zero judicial process or transparency.

We literally put people to death with no trial in countries where we have no authority to do so. When we fuck up and kill innocents, no one goes to jail or even loses their job.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_Matrix

But cool that we support sovereignty and due process for our citizens.

My general point here is that we only give a shit about war crimes when it's convenient to advance US interests.

Actually, no. He’s not “officially” a war criminal. He’s been accused of being a war criminal by America, the country leading the world in post-WW2 war crimes.

(Also Ukrainian leaders, who consider any building getting blown up as proof of genocide, thus ironically agreeing with Putin that all the buildings the Ukrainian army blew up in east Ukraine 2014-2022 was a genocide of Russian speakers, justifying Putins war)

There actually has to be a trial and evidence and a conviction before Putin is “officially” a war criminal. Turns out tweets and diatribe speeches aren’t one the same level.

SemiticsRo, Hitler was never tried. I'm certain you'd not suggest he wasn't an official war criminal.

Semantics not Semitics

So, is Obama an "official" war criminal?

Every living president, their entire cabinet, and most of their staff deserves to be put on trial for war crimes.

Ditto for the leadership of pretty much every government of every country.

(or crimes against humanity; idk I'm not a lawyer)

I think there's a choice to be made now between a negotiated solution and escalating a NATO/Russia proxy war in Ukraine. There are a lot of people (some here) advocating for a military solution. That is insane. Russia invaded because they viewed this as an existential threat. They'll turn Ukraine into a meat grinder. There's a chance nuclear weapons will be used, especially if Russia thinks they're losing.

Part of the reason I find the talk about war crimes objectionable is that it is being used (by some people) to justify a course of action that will lead to more war crimes.